Are the Jews still God's people?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

If all Jews are not Israelites, who is a rightful heir of God’s covenant? Would a Jew, not considered as an Israelite then or today, have any real inheritance in the land promised?

When one converted to Judaism, were they thought of as rightful heirs to the land of the covenant or not?

Another question would be whether or not one could be a direct descendant of Christ, a Jew, and not be an Israelite? Could one be a descendant of Jesus and not be heir to the promised land?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If all Jews are not Israelites, who is a rightful heir of God’s covenant? Would a Jew, not considered as an Israelite then or today, have any real inheritance in the land promised?

When one converted to Judaism, were they thought of as rightful heirs to the land of the covenant or not?

Another question would be whether or not one could be a direct descendant of Christ, a Jew, and not be an Israelite? Could one be a descendant of Jesus and not be heir to the promised land?

I'm not sure what you are saying. Decendent of Jesus (sounds gnostic to me). Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. Modern Judaism though there are lineage privilages is not the spiritual inheritors of Gods promise to Abraham. Christians are the true inheretors of the promise to Abraham. Genetic lineage still are in the Jews. But there are no "pure" Jews" and to be honest there never was because that rabble Moses led out of Egypt were a mixture of Egyptians, Arabs, Hebrews, and Africans.

 

[DHK]

I'm not sure what you are saying. Decendent of Jesus (sounds gnostic to me). Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. Modern Judaism though there are lineage privilages is not the spiritual inheritors of Gods promise to Abraham. Christians are the true inheretors of the promise to Abraham. Genetic lineage still are in the Jews. But there are no "pure" Jews" and to be honest there never was because that rabble Moses led out of Egypt were a mixture of Egyptians, Arabs, Hebrews, and Africans.

"But there are no "pure" Jews" and to be honest there never was because that rabble Moses led out of Egypt were a mixture of Egyptians, Arabs, Hebrews, and Africans."

If you believe this, then you my friend, have no salvation and are yet lost in your sins. You have just stated that Mary, Joseph, and Christ himself were not true Jews. Thus Christ has no right to inherit the throne of David; and in fact no authority to die for our sins. He had no right to present himself as the Messiah to the Jewish nation.
"He came to His own, but his own received him not."
Christ violated many laws, then, and was a sinner, according to your theology, and could not die for our sins since only a sinless person could die for sinful people.

I am amazed that you would post such a statement.

It is also a logical fallacy, being a universal negative and impossible to prove.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

"But there are no "pure" Jews" and to be honest there never was because that rabble Moses led out of Egypt were a mixture of Egyptians, Arabs, Hebrews, and Africans."

If you believe this, then you my friend, have no salvation and are yet lost in your sins. You have just stated that Mary, Joseph, and Christ himself were not true Jews. Thus Christ has no right to inherit the throne of David; and in fact no authority to die for our sins. He had no right to present himself as the Messiah to the Jewish nation.
"He came to His own, but his own received him not."
Christ violated many laws, then, and was a sinner, according to your theology, and could not die for our sins since only a sinless person could die for sinful people.

I am amazed that you would post such a statement.

It is also a logical fallacy, being a universal negative and impossible to prove.

What? I have no salvation because the people that were brought out of Egypt were a mixed lot? Also when I talk about pure Jewish decendents I'm not talking about belief in God I'm talking about Abrahamic lineage for certain Rahab was in Jesus and Mary's lineage and she was not Jewish except maybe by faith and only after the conquest of Jericho. Thats what I'm talking about. Not that Mary wasn't Jewish or Joseph or Jesus. My point is that even the Jews are a mixed lot with many nations included in their genepool. And if You believe only the Hebrews were pulled out of Egypt and followed Moses into the holy land you're mistaken read the bible. For Certain read Exodus. And how does believing this make me loose my salvation there is no logic to that. What must you do to be saved? Believe that there is a pure stock Jews that came only from Abraham with no other peoples included in their genepool. yeah thats the gospel. You can be amazed all you want. You either didn't read me right or misunderstood or have some fallicious view of the Scriptures.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinkinstuff: I'm not sure what you are saying. Decendent of Jesus (sounds gnostic to me).

HP: I must have been brain dead on that one. Sorry. I meant to ask about those in Christ’s 'lineage. '

 

[DHK]

What? I have no salvation because the people that were brought out of Egypt were a mixed lot? Also when I talk about pure Jewish decendents I'm not talking about belief in God I'm talking about Abrahamic lineage

I think you have a lot to learn about "Abrahamic lineage." Let's look at it.
1. Abraham and Sarah married. They both came from the same clan.
2. Their child Isaac married Rebekkah who also came from the same clan.
So far so good.
3. Their child Jacob married Rachel and Leah, and their handmaidens, and 12 male children, which became the 12 tribes of Israel were born. So far so good.
4. Now here is where the departure from "Abrahamic lineage" starts, not in the Exodus.

Judah married a Canannite (Shua) and had three sons: Er, Onan, and Shelah. The very line of Christ was contaminated (according to you) from day one.

Joseph married Asenath, an Egyptian, and she bore two children for him. Here is where the Egyptian blood enters in.

Your problem is: what God calls "Jew" you don't. You do not recognize even the very words of God on this matter. You are limiting God, and trying to impose your own restrictions on the word "Jew."

Shall we also call the Apostle Paul a liar and call into question his integrity?
Paul's policy was always to go "to the Jew first and also to the Greek." See Romans 1:16.

What does Paul say about himself:
Acts 21:39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.
--Was Paul lying about his own lineage and heritage; his own blood lines? Was the Holy Spirit lying on his behalf?

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
--Just in case you thought Paul made a mistake, he repeats himself as he gives his testimony again in chapter 22. Again he declares himself to be a Jew; not a false Jew; a true Jew.
In other places we find that he was a Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin. Paul knew of his lineage.

for certain Rahab was in Jesus and Mary's lineage and she was not Jewish except maybe by faith and only after the conquest of Jericho. Thats what I'm talking about. Not that Mary wasn't Jewish or Joseph or Jesus.

However, you have not even taken into consideration the wives of Judah or of Joseph the founding fathers of the nation of Israel. Your reasoning is astounding! Astoundingly ridiculous. If God sees them as Jews, why don't you?

My point is that even the Jews are a mixed lot with many nations included in their genepool. And if You believe only the Hebrews were pulled out of Egypt and followed Moses into the holy land you're mistaken read the bible.

I am not the one that is mistaken. By your postings I don't think you even know what the word "Jew" means. The word "Hebrew" has a slightly different meaning. It refers more to their language and culture and was used in the first century to distinguish them from the Hellenist "Jews" as in Acts chapter 6.
The word "Jew" comes from "Judah." It then came to refer to the southern tribe of Judah and Benjamin during the Divided Kingdom. But after the Restoration (during the time of Christ) the word Jew and Israelite were used interchangeably. That is why Paul sometimes referred to himself as an Israelite, and sometimes as a Jew. There was no difference at that time.

For Certain read Exodus. And how does believing this make me loose my salvation there is no logic to that. What must you do to be saved? Believe that there is a pure stock Jews that came only from Abraham with no other peoples included in their genepool. yeah thats the gospel. You can be amazed all you want. You either didn't read me right or misunderstood or have some fallicious view of the Scriptures.

No, If you don't believe God's view of a Jew, that is that Christ is a Jew, how can you be saved? God sent His Son first to the Jews, and then to the world. While he was on this earth he presented himself to the Jews first.

Mark 7:26-27 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
--The children's bread refers to the Jews. Jesus came to the Jews first.

He came to his own but his own received him not.
We cannot remain in unbelief about who Christ was.
He was not Chinese, Negro, Pakistani, Aboriginal, etc. He was a Jew, and will someday sit on the throne of David.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Why does this list allow DHK to call into question anothers salvation? He did so directly in post #223 and now in post #226. There should be an outcry from every reasonable member of this forum. This is hypocritical and just plain wrong.

 

[LadyEagle]

I think you have a lot to learn about "Abrahamic lineage." Let's look at it.
1. Abraham and Sarah married. They both came from the same clan.
2. Their child Isaac married Rebekkah who also came from the same clan.
So far so good.
3. Their child Jacob married Rachel and Leah, and their handmaidens, and 12 male children, which became the 12 tribes of Israel were born. So far so good.
4. Now here is where the departure from "Abrahamic lineage" starts, not in the Exodus.

Judah married a Canannite (Shua) and had three sons: Er, Onan, and Shelah. The very line of Christ was contaminated (according to you) from day one.

Joseph married Asenath, an Egyptian, and she bore two children for him. Here is where the Egyptian blood enters in.

Your problem is: what God calls "Jew" you don't. You do not recognize even the very words of God on this matter. You are limiting God, and trying to impose your own restrictions on the word "Jew."

Shall we also call the Apostle Paul a liar and call into question his integrity?
Paul's policy was always to go "to the Jew first and also to the Greek." See Romans 1:16.

What does Paul say about himself:
Acts 21:39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.
--Was Paul lying about his own lineage and heritage; his own blood lines? Was the Holy Spirit lying on his behalf?

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
--Just in case you thought Paul made a mistake, he repeats himself as he gives his testimony again in chapter 22. Again he declares himself to be a Jew; not a false Jew; a true Jew.
In other places we find that he was a Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin. Paul knew of his lineage.

However, you have not even taken into consideration the wives of Judah or of Joseph the founding fathers of the nation of Israel. Your reasoning is astounding! Astoundingly ridiculous. If God sees them as Jews, why don't you?

I am not the one that is mistaken. By your postings I don't think you even know what the word "Jew" means. The word "Hebrew" has a slightly different meaning. It refers more to their language and culture and was used in the first century to distinguish them from the Hellenist "Jews" as in Acts chapter 6.
The word "Jew" comes from "Judah." It then came to refer to the southern tribe of Judah and Benjamin during the Divided Kingdom. But after the Restoration (during the time of Christ) the word Jew and Israelite were used interchangeably. That is why Paul sometimes referred to himself as an Israelite, and sometimes as a Jew. There was no difference at that time.

No, If you don't believe God's view of a Jew, that is that Christ is a Jew, how can you be saved? God sent His Son first to the Jews, and then to the world. While he was on this earth he presented himself to the Jews first.

Mark 7:26-27 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
--The children's bread refers to the Jews. Jesus came to the Jews first.

He came to his own but his own received him not.
We cannot remain in unbelief about who Christ was.
He was not Chinese, Negro, Pakistani, Aboriginal, etc. He was a Jew, and will someday sit on the throne of David.

Preach it! That was an awesome post, Brother!!! YES!! :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Why does this list allow DHK to call into question anothers salvation? He did so directly in post #223 and now in post #226. There should be an outcry from every reasonable member of this forum. This is hypocritical and just plain wrong.

HP, you may pm another moderator if you wish.
Just who the "list" is no one knows.
However there is a difference between saying "you are not saved," which I never said, and a statement such as:
"If you believe that Christ is not God (example) then you cannot be saved.
The latter is not calling into question anyone's salvation. It is a statement of fact, prefaced by a condition.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, when one states their view, and you tell them

“DHK: If you believe this, then you my friend, have no salvation and are yet lost in your sins.”

you are directly calling into question their salvation.

 

[DHK]

DHK, when one states their view, and you tell them you are directly calling into question their salvation.

This is a debate forum, not a complaint forum. If you have a problem, hit the alert button. This discussion is closed. Any further such complaints will be deleted.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Did Ruth have the DNA of a true Jew? (whatever one defines that as) If not could her descendants have been true Jews? (again whatever one is to define as a ‘true Jew’ is yet to be defined from what I have read)

 

[DHK]

Did Ruth have the DNA of a true Jew? (whatever one defines that as) If not could her descendants have been true Jews? (again whatever one is to define as a ‘true Jew’ is yet to be defined from what I have read)

Did Asenath or Shua have the DNA of a true Jew?
If not, I suppose the entire nation of Israel is condemned.
The logic behind this discussion is so far removed from common sense that it is meaningless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Did Asenath or Shua have the DNA of a true Jew?
If not, I suppose the entire nation of Israel is condemned.
The logic behind this discussion is so far removed from common sense that it is meaningless.

HP: Far from it DHK. This is a very interesting discussion.:thumbsup: I am not claiming any expertise in this area for I have a lot of question myself. One thing I do know is that there was a lady named Ruth who was in the direct lineage of Jesus Himself, that to my kmowledge never had a drop of DNA in her own blood stream that was ‘Jewish’, yet she obviously qualified as Jew did she not? Maybe some possibly say that she was a Jew just not an Israelite.

If you have already done it, forgive me, but can you define a ‘true Jew’ for the list? What is the distinction you see between being a Jew and being an Israelite? How does Ruth fit into your definition? Was she a true Jew? If not, we might have a problem as I see it.

 

[LadyEagle]

Also when I talk about pure Jewish decendents I'm not talking about belief in God I'm talking about Abrahamic lineage

Jesus knew/knows who the Israelites/Jews/Hebrews are:

Matthew 10:[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
[6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus also said:

Matthew 15:24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

This fallacy about the Jewish lineage being polluted is really over the top!

God doesn't seem to think the Israelite/Hebrew/Jewish lineage is polluted and even calls each tribe by name in Rev 12,000 from each tribe, 144,000 in all. There ain't a Gentile in the bunch mentioned in this list:

Rev.7
[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Jews know who they are and have known who they are since the Diaspora, whether they were in Babylon, China, Russia, Europe, South America, Africa, North America, Australia, wherever they have been scattered. Their persecutors have always known who they were, too. No other group throughout the history of mankind has managed to keep their identity intact, no matter what nations they assimilated into - Jews have always known who they are and Satan knows, too, and has worked through evil men and powers like Haman, the Romans, the Greeks, the RCC, mohammed, Hitler, Stalin, or Hamas and Hezbollah and the little tyrant of Iran. Their identity has always been and remains intact to Satan and his minions and to Almighty God, whether anyone on this board believes it or not.

 

[DHK]

HP: Far from it DHK. This is a very interesting discussion.:thumbsup: I am not claiming any expertise in this area for I have a lot of question myself. One thing I do know is that there was a lady named Ruth who was in the direct lineage of Jesus Himself, that to my kmowledge never had a drop of DNA in her own blood stream that was ‘Jewish’, yet she obviously qualified as Jew did she not? Maybe some possibly say that she was a Jew just not an Israelite.

If you have already done it, forgive me, but can you define a ‘true Jew’ for the list? What is the distinction you see between being a Jew and being an Israelite? How does Ruth fit into your definition? Was she a true Jew? If not, we might have a problem as I see it.

Any discussion about Ruth is moot if you don't address Asenath and Shua first.
Shua was a Canaanite, the wife of Judah, the ancestor of David from whom Christ came. If you are going by DNA, then it began right at the beginning with the tribe of Judah. Don't you think that Ruth and Rahab are rather insignificant in the light of the fact that Judah himself had a Gentile wife.

Likewise Joseph also had an Egyptian wife. If you remember the story about Joseph being sold into slavery in Egypt, and then being raised to prominence. He got his wife from Egypt. And his children were Egyptian. The line was polluted there as well. Again, Ruth and Rahab are insignificant compared to the Gentile wives of Joseph and Judah.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The line was polluted there as well. Again, Ruth and Rahab are insignificant compared to the Gentile wives of Joseph and Judah.

HP: Could we be thinking wrong about the line? I don’t like the thought that the word ‘polluted’ conjures up in my mind. Let me just throw this out as a question. Could it be that even from the start blood lines were simply not as relative to being a Jew as faith, to God that is? We all know that regarless of how you try and control the blood line it gets out of hand quickly with those not blood related entering the Jewish gene pool, and no possible way to determine, nor any standard to go by, of just how much of which gene pool constituted a true Jew.

Could have Paul been right, even from the beginning that Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”? Just asking.

As I write this my mind goes to the pedigree men like Paul had and were obviously proud of it. Go ahead and tell me I am waffling on the fence because I am. :tonofbricks:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Asenath and Shua

HP: Notice that the three exceptions are women. We know that the blood line of a Jew is always listed through the father, right or wrong? Are there any men in the blood line of Christ that one could point to them as being a Gentile? I cannot think of any.

This would lead me to believe that somehow the bloodline, due to the fact it is traced through the father and not the mother, could in fact be traceable and pure ‘in that sense’ even though Gentile DNA was involved through some of the mothers. Am I all wet?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Now along comes a male proselyte with his Gentile wife from say Ethiopia. Being married they have children and their sons and daughters. One would have to say they are Jews although they have no blood line on the father or mother side that would genetically grant them a pedigree.

I will never forget a black Jew I met one day and had a short conversation with. The issue was brought up about being black and Jewish and the comment was made something to the effect that one does not always think of Jews as being black. He said that many have a wrong conception about being a Jew. He told me something to the effect that “Being a Jew is not about being part of a race, it is about a religion.”

Was this Jew right or wrong in his estimation of what constitutes a Jew?

 

[DHK]

HP: Could we be thinking wrong about the line? I don’t like the thought that the word ‘polluted’ conjures up in my mind. Let me just throw this out as a question. Could it be that even from the start blood lines were simply not as relative to being a Jew as faith, to God that is? We all know that regarless of how you try and control the blood line it gets out of hand quickly with those not blood related entering the Jewish gene pool, and no possible way to determine, nor any standard to go by, of just how much of which gene pool constituted a true Jew.

Absolutely. The Lord promised Abraham that He would make him great, a father of many nations. He became the "Father of the nation of Israel," among others. Before they went into Egypt, they were primarily one extended family or a clan. By the time that Jacob went down to Egypt, he took his household--70 in all--Jacob was already married and so was Judah. Before this clan had become a nation there was already Gentile blood in it. God doesn't go by DNA. He goes by faith in Jehovah (faith in Christ).
During the time in Egypt those 70 plus people multiplied exceedingly until finally Moses became their deliverer and led ca. two million people (if one includes women and children) out of the wilderness. Upon reaching Mt. Sinai they were officially formed into a nation with a law--both moral, civil, and ceremonial. Their religion became liturgical with many guidelines in worship. All in all within the law they were called out to be a separated nation. The principle of separation was for one reason--that they would be a light unto the Gentiles. Why a light? By being a light, many more would be won to Jehovah. It was never God's purpose to "keep blood lines pure." Ruth is a good example of what Israel should have been doing (and did do through Naomi):

Ruth 1:16-17 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God: Where thou diest, will I die, and there will I be buried: the LORD do so to me, and more also, if ought but death part thee and me.

Rahab also heard of the mighty miracles that were done by Jehovah in Egypt and thus believed.

Thus we can see that God is concerned with:
1. Israel's testimony, and
2. The faith in Jehovah of others.

He was concerned about Nineveh, to whom he sent Jonah.

Could have Paul been right, even from the beginning that Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”? Just asking.

Yes, Take a look at the Judges (the book). The key verse is:

Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
--There were many unsaved Jews in that day. They were not saved just because they were a Jew. Jesus told the Pharisees that quite plainly in John 8:44 "Your father is the devil."

The key verse in Habakkuk is:
Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
--Salvation was the same in the OT, as it was in the NT.

As I write this my mind goes to the pedigree men like Paul had and were obviously proud of it. Go ahead and tell me I am waffling on the fence because I am. :tonofbricks:

God has always been interested in the salvation of others.
He is not willing that any should perish.
He used the nation of Israel in the OT. When they failed he judged them and they were sent into captivity: the Northern Kingdom in 722 B.C. by the Assyrians, and the Southern Kingdom in 586 by the Babylonians.

Nowadays he is calling out a nation to himself to bring forth the praises of Him who has called us out of darkness into his marvellous light.