Are the Jews still God's people?

[Thinkingstuff]

This is ridiculous DHK. Judeans are a mixed linage they are still Jews thats my ultimate point. And to this day they are even more mixed with Celts, germanic peoples, Slavic peoples. My definition of Jew was more inlcusive then Judean at the time of Christ. But you may have a point their because Judean peoples were then referred to Jews but those very same Jews had mixed Herritage. To Inlcude Africans (for those Arian Supremesist that might be reading this) Much like most cultures. And So I'm not sure what you mean by pure. If anything My definition is more inclusive. But I'll stick just with Judeans. They were a mix of people dominated by Abrahamic lineage but other nations were involved.

 

[DHK]

This is ridiculous DHK. Judeans are a mixed linage

You are not really making sense.
Judah, the son of Jacob, married Shuah, a Canaanite. The lineage was mixed before the nation ever began.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Does anyone have any thoughts on post #238?

 

[DHK]

HP: Notice that the three exceptions are women. We know that the blood line of a Jew is always listed through the father, right or wrong? Are there any men in the blood line of Christ that one could point to them as being a Gentile? I cannot think of any.

The blood line of Christ is the only one that mattered. If traced through the male, as it is in Mat. 1, then one can see that it is a "pure blood line," for even Ruth is mentioned as the wife of Boaz.

This would lead me to believe that somehow the bloodline, due to the fact it is traced through the father and not the mother, could in fact be traceable and pure ‘in that sense’ even though Gentile DNA was involved through some of the mothers. Am I all wet?
However, the bloodline, even if traced through the men alone, from this century down to the time of Christ really doesn't matter. It can be done. But what was the purpose of Israel? They were a light to the Gentiles. To that end they proselytized. By the time of Christ there were man Jews from many nations that came to the Feast of Pentecost, all mentioned in Acts chapter one. About 13 different nations are mentioned, each with their own language. Thus the gift of languages.

The Ethiopian Eunuch is an example of one such "Jew" who came to the Feast of Pentecost, and now was returning on his way back to Ethiopia. He was a proselyte to the Jewish Religion. A heathen would not be reading the Book of Isaiah. This man was a Jew, and he was black--from Ethiopia. This black Jew trusted Christ.

Now look at the list given in Acts one, and see if you can visualize color:

Acts 2:8-11 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Were all of these people the typical "olive-colored Jew," that we know of today, that we have stereo-typed in our minds? No, obviously not.
The blood lines run far into Greece, as many of the Jews of that day were Greeks.

Acts 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

Remember that the Septuagint was translated from Hebrew to Greek as far back as 250 B.C. so that the Hellenist Jews who did not understand Hebrew as their mother tongue, would be better able to understand the Scripture (OT).

A Jew (same as an Israelite) was one who had converted to Judaism. Color was not a factor at the time of Christ. Only more recently has ethnic bias become more of a problem.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, what reasons can you think of that made the pedigree records so important for the Jews? We both agree(?) that #1 on the list was to be able to positively check to see that the Messiah was indeed qualified by lineage to be who it was prophesied for Him to be. (at least I think we agree on this point) Their priesthood might have been another but with Christ as our Only High Priest that is forever settled. What am I missing? Are their any other important issue to God, us, or to the Jews today for trying to keep track of pedigrees other than for the curiosity of families as to their ancestry? Do pedigrees have anything to do with the way one obtains land or prominence in the societies of the Jews? Even if it was so it would not indicate in any way that God took notice of that particular peculiarity of keeping track of them by genetic or family ties. Again, could the whole purpose of keeping accurate records genetically have been for the fulfillment of prophesy concerning one man, the man Christ Jesus, and as such run its course and finished its work? Again, just asking.

 

[DHK]

DHK, what reasons can you think of that made the pedigree records so important for the Jews? We both agree(?) that #1 on the list was to be able to positively check to see that the Messiah was indeed qualified by lineage to be who it was prophesied for Him to be. (at least I think we agree on this point) Their priesthood might have been another but with Christ as our Only High Priest that is forever settled. What am I missing? Are their any other important issue to God, us, or to the Jews today for trying to keep track of pedigrees other than for the curiosity of families as to their ancestry? Do pedigrees have anything to do with the way one obtains land or prominence in the societies of the Jews? Even if it was so it would not indicate in any way that God took notice of that particular peculiarity of keeping track of them by genetic or family ties. Again, could the whole purpose of keeping accurate records genetically have been for the fulfillment of prophesy concerning one man, the man Christ Jesus, and as such run its course and finished its work? Again, just asking.

Genesis 12:1-3 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 15:5-7 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Genesis 13:14-17 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

God promised the land, now known as Israel (and much more) to Abraham and his descendants--the Jews (the nation of Israel. Remember that the name of Jacob is Israel.
The Muslims believe that Abraham sacrificed Ishmael, and that the land was promised to Ishmael and his descendants (the Arabs), and by extension the Muslims.
We know by the Word of God that view is wrong, and that it was Isaac that inherited the promise of Abraham. The promise was passed down through Jacob, the twelve tribes, etc. Christ himself came from Judah. But the nation came from the twelve tribes. They, and whoever else became a Jew, would inherit all the land of Canaan. The Jews possessed the greatest part of that promise during the reign of Solomon.

During the dispersion it was taken away as they were taken away into captivity. Then the restoration came, when they were allowed to rebuild the Temple. In 70 A.D. Titus destroyed the Temple and again the Jews were scattered, and have been for centuries, until the U.N. recognized them once again as a nation in 1948. But the Arab nations have never recognized the Jews as a nation. They want to drive them off the face of this world, so to speak.
Look at this quote from Worthy News:

The fighting has been complicated by fresh evidence that Hamas does not want to recognize Israel as a sovereign state. In a commercial aired on Hamas Television, and obtained by Worthy News, a militant can be heard saying: “We will not recognize Israel. If you want security or peace you should go back to where you came from,” according to a translation provided by the Middle East Media Research Institute.

http://www.worthynews.com/3689-rockets-from-lebanon-hit-israel-gaza-battle-rages-in-depth

But since 1948, and especially in more recent years, the Jews have been returning to Israel. Both peoples are claiming the land for themselves. It rightly belongs to the Jews. Obviously "pedigree" becomes of importance. Who is a Jew, and who rightly inherits this small piece of land, where Jesus promised He would someday return?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thanks DHK. I agree with all you have said in the last post as I understand you. Still, as far as the land is concerned, is it only physical, genealogical Israel, that the land was promised to, or when God was making that covenant, speaking of Abraham and his seed, did God have in mind his spiritual seed? Certainly the genealogically tied seed would be included, but are not all proselytes to the faith Abraham’s seed in God’s eyes, and those that married Jews or have been adopted by Jews, all part of the covenant that has granted to them the land? Again, I have no hard and fast ideas at this time. I am searching for answers like many others are as well.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Are the Jew’s God’s people? Absolutely, and so are we. Are there Jews by flesh and spiritual? Absolutely. Were the promises made in the covenant only to physical Jews or were they in God’s intentions made for spiritual Jews as well? What think ye :saint: 's ?

 

[InChrist]

As to whether the Jews are still God's people or not, I can only believe the many Scriptures of the Old Testament which state promises of God concerning the nation Israel and her future restoration are truth. Even Paul in the New Testament continues to draw the distinction between what seems to be three groups of people in God's economy:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=10&v=32&t=KJV#32

1Cr 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

1. Jews
2. Gentiles
3. Church (made up of both Jew and Gentile)

Also in Romans 11 Paul talks about this very subject:

“God hath NOT cast away his people (Israel)…God hath NOT cast away his people whom he foreknew.. Have they (Israel) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid… (vs 1-2, 11)
IF the fall of them be the riches of the world…how much more their fullness? (v 12)
IF the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (v 15)
IF they abide not still in unbelief… for God is able to graff them in again (v 23)
IF thou (Gentiles) wert cut of the olive tree which is wild by nature… how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? (v 24)
Blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED… this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins” (vs 25-27)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, InChrist -- Preach it! :thumbs:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You are not really making sense.
Judah, the son of Jacob, married Shuah, a Canaanite. The lineage was mixed before the nation ever began.

That was my point.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thingingstuff: That was my point.

HP: Where do Scriptures ever state that to be a true Jew, or to take part in the blessing of God upon the nation Israel that one has to be part of a pure blood line? (Not saying that you believe otherwise, just trying to spur thought)

The only reference I find ‘so far’ in Scripture is that the Messiah will have a clear blood line established from Abraham to His father. I can see little if no indication that God was concerned of any blood lines being intact other than to be able to fulfill prophesy concerning His Son. Bloodlines, in and of themselves, from what I have read so far, had little to do with any thing else. Once circumcised and part of Israel, they were part of Israel regardless of bloodlines.

I am open to criticism on this point as well as any other. Debate away. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: Where do Scriptures ever state that to be a true Jew, or to take part in the blessing of God upon the nation Israel that one has to be part of a pure blood line? (Not saying that you believe otherwise, just trying to spur thought)

The only reference I find ‘so far’ in Scripture is that the Messiah will have a clear blood line established from Abraham to His father. I can see little if no indication that God was concerned of any blood lines being intact other than to be able to fulfill prophesy concerning His Son. Bloodlines, in and of themselves, from what I have read so far, had little to do with any thing else. Once circumcised and part of Israel, they were part of Israel regardless of bloodlines.

I am open to criticism on this point as well as any other. Debate away. :thumbs:

Let's see what we have so far.
Martin Luther (on this board) said:
"There is not a person alive that can trace their ancestry back to Abraham."
--The statement is illogical and impossible to prove.
--Paul could demonstrate his lineage back to Abraham and he lived in the time of Christ. That was a span of time of over two thousand years. M.L. doesn't think that we can't go two thousand years back to the time of Christ with all the technology we have, even though those at the time of Christ could go back 2,000 years with no technology at all. That is an odd belief.

It is true that there are proselytes.
Pedigree had to important for Christ; we have established that.
It also had to be important for the Levitical priesthood. One could not be a priest unless he was a descendant from Aaron. For that reason, genealogy was important.

But today it is also important that a Jew recognize his "pedigree" as you call it, or be able to trace his roots, just as Paul was able to, and this would not be a difficult thing. If one, like M.L claims that this is impossible then IMO he is calling into question the sovereignty of God.

In Revelation 7, the Lord will seal 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe. Where will these Jews come from? Are they going to magically appear from the dust? No. They will be here dwelling on this earth, and they will know who they are and from which tribe they are from. This is yet a future event to take place. It is a good reason why ancestry or genealogy is important. They know which tribe (just as Paul did) that they came from. The Lord will seal them.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Let's see what we have so far.
Martin Luther (on this board) said:
"There is not a person alive that can trace their ancestry back to Abraham."
--The statement is illogical and impossible to prove.
--Paul could demonstrate his lineage back to Abraham and he lived in the time of Christ. That was a span of time of over two thousand years. M.L. doesn't think that we can't go two thousand years back to the time of Christ with all the technology we have, even though those at the time of Christ could go back 2,000 years with no technology at all. That is an odd belief.

HP: Odd, but I believe true. When Jerusalem was destroyed just after Christ was crucified, I have read that the records were destroyed to enable them to properly establish a certain pedigree. I could be in error, as I do not have that proof before me, and even if I am correct I do not know the ramifications either one way or the other.

DHK: It is true that there are proselytes.
Pedigree had to important for Christ; we have established that.
It also had to be important for the Levitical priesthood. One could not be a priest unless he was a descendant from Aaron. For that reason, genealogy was important.

HP: Agreed completely. Just the same there is no important Levitical priesthood to be followed at this point. Only in the minds of the deceived Jew is there any such need. It is meaningless, made null and void due to our High priest Jesus. I believe that is why there is so much confusion in the Jewish ranks today, I do not believe that they can be, nor do I believe god desires them to be, absolutely certain of their pedigree. God desires both Jews and Gentiles to accept only one man, the man Christ Jesus as the fulfillment of all offices of the priest. (Yes, I believe in the priesthood of the believer in a sense, but NOT in the same sense as the Jews believe in the office of the priesthood.)

DHK: But today it is also important that a Jew recognize his "pedigree" as you call it, or be able to trace his roots, just as Paul was able to, and this would not be a difficult thing. If one, like M.L claims that this is impossible then IMO he is calling into question the sovereignty of God.

HP: I see much reason to believe that God does NOT desire for them to remain holding onto their pedigrees in relationship to the priesthood, again for obvious reasons. He wants them to accept Christ alone as the fulfillment of that office.

DHK: In Revelation 7, the Lord will seal 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe. Where will these Jews come from? Are they going to magically appear from the dust? No. They will be here dwelling on this earth, and they will know who they are and from which tribe they are from.

HP: They may never know what tribe they are from. Only God may know that. They certainly will know that they are Jews, but that is not established by pedigree. That was established by their acceptance to the practices of their religion such as circumcision. There again, God may in fact reveal to them what tribe they belong to. I simply do not know one way or the other, neither do I believe they have proof of that today, again due to the records being destroyed.

DHK: This is yet a future event to take place. It is a good reason why ancestry or genealogy is important. They know which tribe (just as Paul did) that they came from. The Lord will seal them.

HP: As I pointed out, I disagree. No big deal one way or the other for God knows. :thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

The Jews are citizens of the new Israel and nothing more. The church is the Israel of God.

We need to respect Israel as a sovereign country as we do other nations. There is no special significance to the land, in my opinion.

Cheers,

Jim

Got in on this one late once again you hit the proverbial nail on the head. Thanks!

 

[Thermodynamics]

I believe God made a promist to Abraham that the Jewish people would always be His chosen people and I do not believe God breaks His word. The Jewish people of today are as much God's chosen people as the Jewish people of Moses' time.

I believe the promise that God would bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse them is still in force today.

 

[OldRegular]

DHK: In Revelation 7, the Lord will seal 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe. Where will these Jews come from? Are they going to magically appear from the dust? No. They will be here dwelling on this earth, and they will know who they are and from which tribe they are from.

You neglect to mention that not all 12 tribes are mentioned. The tribe of Dan is missing. The tribe of Joseph is included as is the half tribe of Manasseh. Since the tribe of Joseph, the father of Ephraim and Manasseh, is included why is the half tribe of Manasseh included? Expositors who want to interpret this passage literally have attempted to explain the absence of Dan, the inclusion of both Manasseh and Joseph, and the absence of Ephraim in various ways. However any attempt to interpret this passage literally creates problems. The salient fact is that the twelve tribes of Israel are not all listed.

 

[OldRegular]

I believe God made a promist to Abraham that the Jewish people would always be His chosen people and I do not believe God breaks His word. The Jewish people of today are as much God's chosen people as the Jewish people of Moses' time.

I believe the promise that God would bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse them is still in force today.

I enjoyed Thermodynamics also but I have a question. Suppose one who has been saved by Jesus Christ curses Israel. What does God do?

 

[Thermodynamics]

I enjoyed Thermodynamics also but I have a question. Suppose one who has been saved by Jesus Christ curses Israel. What does God do?

I would assume God would do the same thing He would if someone who has been saved by Jesus were to steal something, cheat on his wife or kill someone. All of our actions have a reaction. If we sin we can expect to be punished in some way and at some point.

 

[OldRegular]

I would assume God would do the same thing He would if someone who has been saved by Jesus were to steal something, cheat on his wife or kill someone. All of our actions have a reaction. If we sin we can expect to be punished in some way and at some point.

There is a world of difference between God chastening a Christian and God cursing a Christian.