Are the Jews still God's people?

[Thermodynamics]

There is a world of difference between God chastening a Christian and God cursing a Christian.

That depends on what is intended by the Hebrew word translated "curse" here.

 

[Steven2006]

If we have been grafted into Israel (and we have), then why do some want to keep us separate from Israel???

If something is grafted into a tree it changes what is grafted in, not the tree. The tree "Israel" is still the same as it was, the grafting has not changed that, so promises from God made to it, would not have changed.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steven 2006: If something is grafted into a tree it changes what is grafted in, not the tree. The tree "Israel" is still the same as it was, the grafting has not changed that, so promises from God made to it, would not have changed.

HP: Makes perfect sense to me. I am about to come to the conclusion that the Jews were not saved simply by faith as we are, and that they indeed came to God via a different plan. One salvation for all times sounds plausible to some degree, but that is apparently not what in reality was the case. Here is a remark by Alfred Edersheim in “The Life and Times of Jesus Christ the Messiah.” In his in depth and lengthy studies, he came to this conclusion. “Rabbinism started with the demand of outward obedience and righteousness, and pointed to sonship as its goal; the gospel started with the free gift of forgiveness through faith and sonship, and pointed to obedience and righteousness as its goal.”

Now although I might state the gospel in ‘slightly’ different terms, is still brings to light a stark contrast between the two systems. As we know, or at least I believe we should know, faith was not the first requirement in the Jewish system, but rather circumcision, was it not? The word of salvation by faith was not preached until Christ, was it?

Now this should bring BR back to life for certain. :thumbsup: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[OldRegular]

That depends on what is intended by the Hebrew word translated "curse" here.

The Scripture in question is Genesis 12:3, And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Strong's gives the meaning of the Hebrew word translated curse as:

a primitive root; to execrate:-- X bitterly curse.

The meaning of execrate is: To detest utterly; abhor; abominate; imprecate evil upon; damn.

..............................................

Scripture dealing with the chastening of Christians are:

Hebrews 12:5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hebrews 12:7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hebrews 12:8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Hebrews 12:11. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Revelation 3:19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

The meaning of the Greek word translated chasten from Thayers is:

1) to train children
... 1a) to be instructed or taught or learn
... 1b) to cause one to learn
2) to chastise
... 2a) to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
..... 2a1) of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition
... 2b) of God
..... 2b1) to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
... 2c) to chastise with blows, to scourge
..... 2c1) of a father punishing his son
..... 2c2) of a judge ordering one to be scourged



Anyone who can spell Thermodynamics should be able to tell the difference between curse and chasten.

 

[Thermodynamics]

In Genesis 17:7 God makes it clear that the promises He makes to Abraham are "everlasting." I believe God so I also believe the Jewish people are still God's chosen people and that anyone who curses them will be cursed by God.

 

[OldRegular]

In Genesis 17:7 God makes it clear that the promises He makes to Abraham are "everlasting." I believe God so I also believe the Jewish people are still God's chosen people and that anyone who curses them will be cursed by God.

So you believe that God will curse those for whom Jesus Christ died? Unreal!

You are also denying Scripture, assuming you believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and that God is its Author:

God through the Apostle Paul tells us in Romans:

Romans 8:33-39
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

By your reasoning you create conflict in the Godhead, an imposibility. Your reasoning in this issue is one of the worst errors of dispensationalism.

 

[Thermodynamics]

The word "curse" used in Genesis 12:3 does not refer to damnation to Hell, but rather to punishment in this life.

I base my belief on what the Bible says and I reject replacement theology.

Genesis 12:3 - "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Genesis 17:7 - "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."

I do not believe God lied to Abraham!

 

[Jim1999]

Some of us believe the hertiage of Israel is continued in the Israel of God, the church. An end has come to Israel the nation. The country known as Israel is just that, a country. The Jews must come through Jesus as do we all.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Thermodynamics]

Hi Jim, I appreciate our willingness to discuss the issue without saying that I'm "denying Scripture" just because we don't agree on this issue.

I think my best course of action is to ignore the person who is only looking for a fight and to discuss the issue with more reasonable and kind people like yourself.

 

[Jim1999]

I readily admit it is a question of hermeneutics and eschatology, and good people on both sides have their opinions. I have pastored churches where the majority held Scofield Reference Bibles and Larkin books and never had an ounce of trouble. I guess I can do that now. :saint:
One book that discusses all four viewpoints by qualified people in each viewpoint is: The Meaning of the Millennium, edited by Robert G. Clouse, InterVarsity Press, 1977

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Thermodynamics]

I've never owned a Scofield Bible, but I do have some Larkin books.:laugh:

 

[Jim1999]

Aside from my Prayer Book and original Bible from the Church of England, I still have the Scofield Bible the PB's gave to me when I was with them. I also have 7 or 8 Larkin books and charts. Must haves for dispensationalists...ALthough I am told they are out of date now...........

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Thermodynamics]

There are quite a few things that Larkin wrote with which I do not agree, but his books are good reading. They are worth the cost just for the cool charts.

 

[OldRegular]

The word "curse" used in Genesis 12:3 does not refer to damnation to Hell, but rather to punishment in this life.

I base my belief on what the Bible says and I reject replacement theology.

Genesis 12:3 - "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Genesis 17:7 - "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."

I do not believe God lied to Abraham!

Why is it that when dispensationalists are questioned they always tie God together with the word lie? That is an attempt to trivialize the discussion.

The important truth is that you do not understand Scripture. Why not read what the Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul say about the seed of Abraham?

Jesus Christ tells the Jews when they try to hide behind the term "Abraham's seed":

Matthew 3:7-9
7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8. Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

John 8:31-44
31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33. They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37. I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Apostle Paul tells us in Galatians:

Galatians 3:13-18; 26-29
13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now read what Abraham thought about the promise of God:

Hebrews 11:8-16

8. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Was Abraham accusing God of lying when it is said that:

1. he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God?
2. his seed confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth?
3. if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned?
4. they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city?

Why did Abraham consider himself a stranger and pilgrims on the earth? Why did Abraham desire a better country, that is, an heavenly country? Why was God not ashamed to be called their God since he had prepared a city for then?

It was because, as Paul said:

Galatians 3:6-9
6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

The same Gospel that is preached to us was preached to Abraham and he believed. Therefore, the city that God has prepared for Abraham and his seed is the New Jerusalem, The Church, The chaste bride of Jesus Christ.

Christians, along with Abraham are, stranger and pilgrims on this earth. We as Christians should look for the return of Jesus Christ in power and great glory when He will raise all the dead, those in Adam and those in Jesus Christ. Those living shall be changed in a moment in the twinkling of the eye. We shall all stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne judgment. Those who are in Christ shall enter the New Heavens and New Earth; those who died in Adam shall be cast into the lake of fire with Satan and his angels.

The writer of Hebrews sums it up in the following [Hebrews 11:39, 40]:

39. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[Martin Luther]

Let's see what we have so far.
Martin Luther (on this board) said:
"There is not a person alive that can trace their ancestry back to Abraham."
--The statement is illogical and impossible to prove.
--Paul could demonstrate his lineage back to Abraham and he lived in the time of Christ. That was a span of time of over two thousand years. M.L. doesn't think that we can't go two thousand years back to the time of Christ with all the technology we have, even though those at the time of Christ could go back 2,000 years with no technology at all. That is an odd belief.

It is true that there are proselytes.
Pedigree had to important for Christ; we have established that.
It also had to be important for the Levitical priesthood. One could not be a priest unless he was a descendant from Aaron. For that reason, genealogy was important.

But today it is also important that a Jew recognize his "pedigree" as you call it, or be able to trace his roots, just as Paul was able to, and this would not be a difficult thing. If one, like M.L claims that this is impossible then IMO he is calling into question the sovereignty of God.

In Revelation 7, the Lord will seal 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe. Where will these Jews come from? Are they going to magically appear from the dust? No. They will be here dwelling on this earth, and they will know who they are and from which tribe they are from. This is yet a future event to take place. It is a good reason why ancestry or genealogy is important. They know which tribe (just as Paul did) that they came from. The Lord will seal them.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Terminology is important, what do most people presume when they read jew and gentile? Most people think Israelite and non-Israelite but the term jew can best be explained like this:

Since the time of Moses, men were redeemed not by their strict adherence to the law but through the circumcision of their heart. Meaning that good men would by obedience follow the law but it was the condition of their heart that saved them. God makes it very clear in the O.T. that any man of any race can be saved in this way, see Isaiah 56:6-7. Corrupt men looked at the law more legalistically. They thought as long as they obeyed the letter of the law what was in their heart didn't not really matter. It was only a matter of time before these wicked men began to change the law through their positions of power. They claimed they had the ability to see hidden truths that the regular follower could not see. As Israel's spirituality began to decline they soon went into bondage and God allowed them to be conquered, this is where we begin to see the term jew used.

The key here is that the term is a reference to the religion of those following the law for salvation. Where things get sticky is that there were undoubtedly those who followed the pure law and those who followed the Pharisee version. Christ never called Himself a jew but he was one in the sense that he practiced the original law. Those following the law (known as jews a people not of one race but many) had to make a choice, assume Christ was a promised Messiah or look for another. When we read that Christ came unto His own, it is a reference to those who claimed to be looking for Messiah, those attempting to follow the law.

God has always been building a nation of men and women circumcised in the heart. The N.T. is comprised of books written to two groups of people, the jews, those following the law for salvation; those who had to be shown that Christ fulfilled the law and that salvation was of faith and not in the works of the law, specifically a condition of one’s heart. And the gentiles (another term for heathen), those who never practiced the law for salvation; these may have included physical Israelites. Paul explained thoroughly that salvation was a matter of faith and that God would give salvation to all men through Christ if they became obedient to Christ. Those who chose to reject Christ continued to practice the law. The Christ rejecting law followers stayed in Jerusalem right up to the end in 70 A.D. They fought and died never trusting in the Messiah. To this day they are still called jews. For a Christian to ignorantly call the jews Gods chosen people, would be like saying that the descendants of the Christ rejecting law followers are Gods chosen people. It is ignorant from a religious perspective and ignorant from a physical perspective. At the very very best, there may be some who still call themselves jews who may possess some blood from either Benjamin, Judah or Levi. The northern ten tribes turned to pagan gods and never returned to Israel. Israel/Church will not be a perfect nation until Christ returns.

 

[DHK]

For a Christian to ignorantly call the jews Gods chosen people, would be like saying that the descendants of the Christ rejecting law followers are Gods chosen people. It is ignorant from a religious perspective and ignorant from a physical perspective. At the very very best, there may be some who still call themselves jews who may possess some blood from either Benjamin, Judah or Levi. The northern ten tribes turned to pagan gods and never returned to Israel. Israel/Church will not be a perfect nation until Christ returns.

You are right here. They are not God's chosen people now. And most Christians will agree with you. They have been blinded for a season. For a season they have been set on the shelf, until the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled. During the end of the Tribulation, Christ will come again, for the Jews, that remnant that long ago He promised He would preserve for David's sake, and they will be saved; as it also says in Romans 11:26

"So then all Israel shall be saved."

Israel's enemies will be defeated, and Israel then will accept Christ as their Messiah, and will enter into the Millennial Kingdom, which will begin at that time. However for now, the Jew must trust Christ the same way that any other person must--by faith in the shed blood of Christ.

 

[Martin Luther]

You are right here. They are not God's chosen people now. And most Christians will agree with you. They have been blinded for a season. For a season they have been set on the shelf, until the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled. During the end of the Tribulation, Christ will come again, for the Jews, that remnant that long ago He promised He would preserve for David's sake, and they will be saved; as it also says in Romans 11:26

"So then all Israel shall be saved."

Israel's enemies will be defeated, and Israel then will accept Christ as their Messiah, and will enter into the Millennial Kingdom, which will begin at that time. However for now, the Jew must trust Christ the same way that any other person must--by faith in the shed blood of Christ.

Jews and Israelites are different. Israel is a people, jews are a religion.

 

[DHK]

Jews and Israelites are different. Israel is a people, jews are a religion.

To Abraham was the promise given. It was both national and religious. That promise, both spiritual and national was given to Isaak and then to Jacob. It was Jacob's name that was changed to Israel. The promises given to Israel are both spiritual and physical (national). The word Jew, comes from Judah, only one tribe or son of Jacob, but eventually came to refer to the entire nation. Now the two terms are interchangeable. One cannot draw the distinction that you are doing. It is not so fine a distinction.

 

[Martin Luther]

To Abraham was the promise given. It was both national and religious. That promise, both spiritual and national was given to Isaak and then to Jacob. It was Jacob's name that was changed to Israel. The promises given to Israel are both spiritual and physical (national). The word Jew, comes from Judah, only one tribe or son of Jacob, but eventually came to refer to the entire nation. Now the two terms are interchangeable. One cannot draw the distinction that you are doing. It is not so fine a distinction.

Then why did Paul BECOME a jew if he was born an Israelite?

 

[DHK]

Then why did Paul BECOME a jew if he was born an Israelite?

He did not become a Jew; he was saved and became a Christian.