Are the Lost Allowed to Seek God?

[Van]

I think you are asking the wrong question here. It should not be, does God allow? It should be, who will seek? The answer is that nobody seeks God on their own. Romans 3:10-11.

No one seeks God unless they have been given the grace of God's revelation. I expect, given your name, that what you are unwilling to say outright is your doctrine teaches no lost person is able to seek God until "enabled" by "Irresistible Grace."
So you have no answer to the fact 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says individuals are chosen for salvation "through" faith. That means they had faith which was utilized by God in His election of that individual. Thus they had to have sought God to have faith in God before they were even chosen. It is a lock.

 

[canadyjd]

No one seeks God unless they have been given the grace of God's revelation. I expect, given your name, that what you are unwilling to say outright is your doctrine teaches no lost person is able to seek God until "enabled" by "Irresistible Grace."
So you have no answer to the fact 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says individuals are chosen for salvation "through" faith. That means they had faith which was utilized by God in His election of that individual. Thus they had to have sought God to have faith in God before they were even chosen. It is a lock.

You are misquoting 2 Thessalonians 2:13, again. This is why your beliefs are so unbiblical.

We are chosen to be the firsts fruits of salvation “through sanctification of the Holy Spirit” and belief in the truth.

We are first “set apart” (sanctified) by God Holy Spirit and we then believe the truth of the gospel.

Half quoting scripture is misquoting scripture, especially when it changes the meaning of the passage.

peace to you

 

[Dr. Bob]

We are chosen to be the firsts fruits of salvation “through sanctification of the Holy Spirit” and belief in the truth. We are first “set apart” (sanctified) by God Holy Spirit and we then believe the truth of the gospel.

Absolute truth. God's Spirit MUST work first to sanctify (make soul a new spiritual creation) before anyone can believe.

Those who say God gives the Gospel and it is up to us to make the choice, THEN God calls us must believe MAN is sovereign choice-maker in salvation, not God. We know that some on the BB hold that self-righteous error, elevating the will of man over the will of God. Go to the Calvinism v Arminianism forum to see that usurping of God's sovereignty by puny-minded men in thread after thread. We do NOT need a repeat here in the regular theology forum.

 

[Silverhair]

Absolute truth. God's Spirit MUST work first to sanctify (make soul a new spiritual creation) before anyone can believe.

Those who say God gives the Gospel and it is up to us to make the choice, THEN God calls us must believe MAN is sovereign choice-maker in salvation, not God. We know that some on the BB hold that self-righteous error, elevating the will of man over the will of God. Go to the Calvinism v Arminianism forum to see that usurping of God's sovereignty by puny-minded men in thread after thread. We do NOT need a repeat here in the regular theology forum.

As a minister you do a poor job of presenting the gospel message as found in scripture. But you do a good job of putting forward the errant calvinist theology.

You have continued to put forward the unbiblical view that a person is saved {make soul a new spiritual creation} prior to them believing. As a minister you will be held to account for the false teaching that you have and continue to do.

 

[canadyjd]

As a minister you do a poor job of presenting the gospel message as found in scripture. But you do a good job of putting forward the errant calvinist theology.

You have continued to put forward the unbiblical view that a person is saved {make soul a new spiritual creation} prior to them believing. As a minister you will be held to account for the false teaching that you have and continue to do.

So says the one who maintains many are saved having never heard the gospel.

I don’t think any one needs a lecture in theology from such a person.

Peace to you

 

[Dr. Bob]

view that a person is saved {make soul a new spiritual creation} prior to them believing.

Hey, you DO listen to God's Word on occasion and heard me! "Saved" is a wonderful shorthand word that encompasses ALL that goes into this eternal life business!!

Salvation begins and ends with God. Since man cannot do one right thing (in God's eyes) and even our most righteous deeds (again, righteous in our own eyes) are filthy rags, it HAS to be God or not at all. If it's up to me 1% then it is not 100% grace. We all know that.

If it starts with hearing (really hearing, with understanding) the Gospel, it is up to God to make me able to hear.
If I must repent (really repent like the Bible says), it is up to God to give me that ability.
If I must believe the Gospel, it is up to God to give me faith to believe.

Getting the picture is hard for some who want to DO something or feel that they contributed to this "salvation". (And didn't even talk about God's selection from all those going to hell to DO this. Or KEEP me saved. 'Cause if I could lose my salvation, I would.)

 

[Silverhair]

So says the one who maintains many are saved having never heard the gospel.

I don’t think any one needs a lecture in theology from such a person.

Peace to you

Then it is obvious that you still do not trust scripture or God.

 

[canadyjd]

Then it is obvious that you still do not trust scripture or God.

Only in your mind

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Hey, you DO listen to God's Word on occasion and heard me! "Saved" is a wonderful shorthand word that encompasses ALL that goes into this eternal life business!!

Salvation begins and ends with God. Since man cannot do one right thing (in God's eyes) and even our most righteous deeds (again, righteous in our own eyes) are filthy rags, it HAS to be God or not at all. If it's up to me 1% then it is not 100% grace. We all know that.

If it starts with hearing (really hearing, with understanding) the Gospel, it is up to God to make me able to hear.
If I must repent (really repent like the Bible says), it is up to God to give me that ability.
If I must believe the Gospel, it is up to God to give me faith to believe.

Getting the picture is hard for some who want to DO something or feel that they contributed to this "salvation". (And didn't even talk about God's selection from all those going to hell to DO this. Or KEEP me saved. 'Cause if I could lose my salvation, I would.)

You almost get it right but then you fall back into the calvinist error.

Where the calvinists such as you fail is that you then require God to treat man as if he were a puppet. Man can only dance to the string that God pulls. And yet you say man is responsible.

By your own words God has to make them hear, repent and believe. So if God does not make them hear, repent and believe then why would He hold them responsible for not doing so. The bible says God is just but that does not sound very just does it.

We are also told that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Following your logic is He unable to save everyone or is He just telling a lie? Your theology falls apart when you carry it through to its' logical conclusion.

The biggest hurdle that you as a calvinist have to get over is how do you know that you believe and are saved? As you said God has to make you hear, repent and believe. So even your faith is not your own and you have to hope that it is real and not just wishful thinking.

 

[Silverhair]

Only in your mind

peace to you

The fact is you continue to deny scripture. You have fallen for an errant philosophy called calvinism.

 

[Van]

Are some of the Lost allowed and thus able, to seek God? The answer from scripture is yes, but they do not seek God when sinning, and since we all sin, none of us seek God all the time.

If a person receives the gospel, even partially, they were seeking God to some degree. Three of the Four Soils, types of people, were allowed to seek God. Only those whose heart has been "hardened" are no longer allowed to seek God. None of the lost seek God all the time such as when sinning, we all fall short of the glory of God, we all turn aside from the path of righteousness, and some more than others!

 

[canadyjd]

…

By your own words God has to make them hear, repent and believe. So if God does not make them hear, repent and believe then why would He hold them responsible for not doing so….

Romans 9:18-21

You are in error because you don’t know, or simply ignore scripture.

This passage answers your question concerning why God still holds them accountable.

Pay particular attention to “who are you, oh man, that answers back to God?”

You think you are the first to attack the doctrines of Grace with this argument? Paul, who taught the doctrines of Grace received from Jesus, Himself, had people in the first century making the same argument you are today.

This passage answers your question. There is no question in my mind you will ignore it because it destroys your argument in support of the doctrines of Grace.

You arguments are secular, not biblical, based on secular philosophy, not scripture.

peace to you

 

[Van]

It is mandatory that God credit the faith of those seeking God in order to obtain salvation. Thus we, those born anew believers, are to beg the lost, be reconciled to God. And to become reconciled, to receive the reconciliation, requires that our faith is credited by God as righteousness. We do not automatically save ourselves by professing faith, no matter how sincere.

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 9:18-21

You are in error because you don’t know, or simply ignore scripture.

This passage answers your question concerning why God still holds them accountable.

Pay particular attention to “who are you, oh man, that answers back to God?”

You think you are the first to attack the doctrines of Grace with this argument? Paul, who taught the doctrines of Grace received from Jesus, Himself, had people in the first century making the same argument you are today.

This passage answers your question. There is no question in my mind you will ignore it because it destroys your argument in support of the doctrines of Grace.

You arguments are secular, not biblical, based on secular philosophy, not scripture.

peace to you

I am not answering back to God I am just showing you how errant your theology is. I actually trust what the bible says as opposed to what you as a calvinist has to do. Your DoG are just your man made philosophy that has twisted and or misapplied scripture.

I do not ignore scripture but I do ignore the errant view you have applied to scripture.

Since Gods desire is for all to be saved and yet not all are there must be a reason not all are.

Now if we went by what @Dr. Bob said that God has to make them hear, repent and believe. Then God is logically responsible for all those that do not hear, repent and believe. That is unless you think man can actually make real choices such as the bible clearly says but which calvinism denies. Then man would actually be responsible for rejecting God.

Those that reject God as Pharaoh did and as many people still do God will harden their hearts and rightly so. But those that respond in faith to the various means that God uses to draw people to Himself will not be hardened.

So God has mercy on those that trust in Him and He hardens those that continue to reject Him.

We see this principle clearly in Pharaoh, the Pharisees that denied Christ, the Judaizers that opposed Paul and we still see it in many people that oppose the biblical message today.

 

[canadyjd]

I am not answering back to God I am just showing you how errant your theology is. I actually trust what the bible says as opposed to what you as a calvinist has to do. Your DoG are just your man made philosophy that has twisted and or misapplied scripture.

I do not ignore scripture but I do ignore the errant view you have applied to scripture.

Since Gods desire is for all to be saved and yet not all are there must be a reason not all are.

Now if we went by what @Dr. Bob said that God has to make them hear, repent and believe. Then God is logically responsible for all those that do not hear, repent and believe. That is unless you think man can actually make real choices such as the bible clearly says but which calvinism denies. Then man would actually be responsible for rejecting God.

Those that reject God as Pharaoh did and as many people still do God will harden their hearts and rightly so. But those that respond in faith to the various means that God uses to draw people to Himself will not be hardened.

So God has mercy on those that trust in Him and He hardens those that continue to reject Him.

We see this principle clearly in Pharaoh, the Pharisees that denied Christ, the Judaizers that opposed Paul and we still see it in many people that oppose the biblical message today.

All those words, yet you ignore Romans 9 which directly answers your statement that God cannot find fault if the person is unable to respond on their own.

You are ignoring scripture, obviously. You are talking back to God, obviously.

You are attempting to hold God to a standard based in secular philosophy and ignoring scripture while you do it.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

All those words, yet you ignore Romans 9 which directly answers your statement that God cannot find fault if the person is unable to respond on their own.

You are ignoring scripture, obviously. You are talking back to God, obviously.

You are attempting to hold God to a standard based in secular philosophy and ignoring scripture while you do it.

peace to you

Nice try to deflect there old boy. To bad that you are not as good at understanding scripture.

You still have not bothered to check out the pagan roots of your theology have you. If you had then you would see that the view you try to import into scripture is just a rehash of pagan philosophy.

What I obviously ignore is your calvinist misunderstanding of scripture. I have explained those verses to you in clear language but you continue to ignore.

But since everything that you do and think has been predetermined for you it really is not your fault. You have been programed that way. It is not scripture that you believe but calvinism.

The text really is not hard to understand when you take of those distorting glasses.

 

[canadyjd]

Nice try to deflect there old boy. To bad that you are not as good at understanding scripture.

You still have not bothered to check out the pagan roots of your theology have you. If you had then you would see that the view you try to import into scripture is just a rehash of pagan philosophy.

What I obviously ignore is your calvinist misunderstanding of scripture. I have explained those verses to you in clear language but you continue to ignore.

But since everything that you do and think has been predetermined for you it really is not your fault. You have been programed that way. It is not scripture that you believe but calvinism.

The text really is not hard to understand when you take of those distorting glasses.

All those words and still ignoring Romans 9.

Your secular, man made philosophy, is contrary to the clear word of God.

You are now in your deflect and attack mode, which always happens when God’s Word proves you are wrong.

No need to continue this.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

All those words and still ignoring Romans 9.

Your secular, man made philosophy, is contrary to the clear word of God.

You are now in your deflect and attack mode, which always happens when God’s Word proves you are wrong.

No need to continue this.

peace to you

You have been shown the truth and yet you hold to your errant DoG. You have effectively denied the sovereignty of God and replaced Him with the sovereignty of your calvinist teachers.

That is so sad. I will continue to pray that God will open your eyes and heart to His word and His truth.

Calvinism is a false doctrine based on pagan beliefs.

 

[David Lamb]

You have been shown the truth and yet you hold to your errant DoG. You have effectively denied the sovereignty of God and replaced Him with the sovereignty of your calvinist teachers.

That is so sad. I will continue to pray that God will open your eyes and heart to His word and His truth.

Calvinism is a false doctrine based on pagan beliefs.

You may not agree with them or believe them, but people who believe the doctrines of grace do so because they believe that that is what the bible teaches. Look through the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, or the Westminster Confession, both of which accord with the doctrines of grace, and both of which give scriptural references for each matter stated. In other words, the beliefs are held because if Scripture, not because Calvin taught them. The doctrines of grace certainly do not deny the sovereignty of God.

 

[Silverhair]

You may not agree with them or believe them, but people who believe the doctrines of grace do so because they believe that that is what the bible teaches. Look through the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, or the Westminster Confession, both of which accord with the doctrines of grace, and both of which give scriptural references for each matter stated. In other words, the beliefs are held because if Scripture, not because Calvin taught them. The doctrines of grace certainly do not deny the sovereignty of God.

The WCF and the LBCF may accord with the DoG but the DoG do not accord with scripture therefore the WCF and LBCF do not accord with scripture as you are suggesting.

The errant doctrines were brought into the church form pagan philosophy by Augustine and then Calvin and latter calvinists just carried them on.

Actually your DoG do question the sovereignty of God.