Are the Lost Allowed to Seek God?

[kyredneck]

Paul: Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

@Silverhair: Is there unrighteousness with God?

Paul: God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

Paul: So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

@Silverhair: Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?

Paul: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?

 

[Silverhair]

Paul: Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

@Silverhair: Is there unrighteousness with God?

Paul: God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

Paul: So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

@Silverhair: Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?

Paul: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?

What's your point KY? Have I said God is unrighteous? NO. Actually in my many posts I have shown just how righteous God is. As the bible says He is just and the justifier of those that believe in Him.

What I have said and scripture proves is that the lost are allowed to seek God and God actually expects them to do so.

Your post shows that you actually do not understand the text you posted.

Paul: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Rom 1:16

Paul: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." Rom 9:14-15

Paul: that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." Rom 10:9-11

Paul: For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." Rom 10:12-13

Paul: For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Rom 11:30-31

Paul: For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! Rom 11:32-33

 

[canadyjd]

You have been shown the truth and yet you hold to your errant DoG. You have effectively denied the sovereignty of God and replaced Him with the sovereignty of your calvinist teachers.

That is so sad. I will continue to pray that God will open your eyes and heart to His word and His truth.

Calvinism is a false doctrine based on pagan beliefs.

Still no attempt to engage Romans 9.

Your man made secular philosophy that denies the Word of God is sad. Your continuous denied of the truth of scripture is sad. Your attempt to dismiss the sacrifice of Jesus as simple one of many ways people come to salvation makes a mockery of Jesus

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Still no attempt to engage Romans 9.

Your man made secular philosophy that denies the Word of God is sad. Your continuous denied of the truth of scripture is sad. Your attempt to dismiss the sacrifice of Jesus as simple one of many ways people come to salvation makes a mockery of Jesus

peace to you

Now if we went by what @Dr. Bob said that God has to make them hear, repent and believe. Then God is logically responsible for all those that do not hear, repent and believe. That is unless you think man can actually make real choices such as the bible clearly says but which calvinism denies. Then man would actually be responsible for rejecting God.

Those that reject God as Pharaoh did and as many people still do God will harden their hearts and rightly so. But those that respond in faith to the various means that God uses to draw people to Himself will not be hardened.

So God has mercy on those that trust in Him and He hardens those that continue to reject Him.

We see this principle clearly in Pharaoh, the Pharisees that denied Christ, the Judaizers that opposed Paul and we still see it in many people that oppose the biblical message today.

You just do not like the fact that your view of Rom 9 is faulty. But since you do not seem to be able to be honest in your comments here is what I posted before.

Now if we went by what @Dr. Bob said that God has to make them hear, repent and believe. Then God is logically responsible for all those that do not hear, repent and believe. That is unless you think man can actually make real choices such as the bible clearly says but which calvinism denies. Then man would actually be responsible for rejecting God.

Those that reject God as Pharaoh did and as many people still do God will harden their hearts and rightly so. But those that respond in faith to the various means that God uses to draw people to Himself will not be hardened.

So God has mercy on those that trust in Him and He hardens those that continue to reject Him.

We see this principle clearly in Pharaoh, the Pharisees that denied Christ, the Judaizers that opposed Paul and we still see it in many people that oppose the biblical message today.


Take off those distorting glasses you wear and actually read the text of the bible not the text of your calvinism.

Why would I bother engaging your faulty understanding of Rom 9. The bible is clear so I will just go with it.

You are the one that has to prove your view is correct but since you cannot to continue to try to deflect from the errant philosophy called calvinism. Remember Augustine introduced pagan philosophy into the church and Calvin and those that followed him carried it forward to today. Your DoG are linked to pagan philosophy so you need to justify your position. But since you cannot you rail against those that point out your error.

 

[Van]

Are some of the Lost allowed and thus able, to seek God? The answer from scripture is yes, but they do not seek God when sinning, and since we all sin, none of us seek God all the time. Many of the lost seek the way to eternal life, but few find it when God credits their faith as righteousness.

If a person receives the gospel, even partially, they were seeking God to some degree. Three of the Four Soils, types of people, were allowed to seek God. Only those whose heart has been "hardened" are no longer allowed to seek God. None of the lost seek God all the time such as when sinning, we all fall short of the glory of God, we all turn aside from the path of righteousness, and some more than others!

It is mandatory that God credit the faith of those seeking God in order to obtain salvation. Thus we, those born anew believers, are to beg the lost, be reconciled to God. And to become reconciled, to receive the reconciliation, requires that our faith is credited by God as righteousness. We do not automatically save ourselves by professing faith, no matter how sincere.

 

[Silverhair]

I've talked with many who were "seeking". But seeking to us implies a desire to find and belief the truth. Most of the "seekers" were seeking a solution or answer or information, NOT from a heart that was regenerated by God. They may find a "god" but it is not THE God. Seeking is NOT the crux of Rom 3:11 "None that seeketh"; it is the OBJECT of that seeking that is the point - "after God".

It's like telling someone to have "faith". Faith alone is not salvific; it is the OBJECT of that faith that saves.

Sinners are commanded to "seek God" - the true God of salvation. But not only "won't" by their volition, but "can't" by their entire nature, and flaunt the command of God to truly seek HIM,

(Aside: Jesus came to seek, too. Not seek God, but the lost sheep. He is 100% successful in seeking His own, for which I personally give Him my thanks.)

There you go again Bob. You continue to read scripture through the lens of your calvinism rather than just trust the bible. You error again when you say a person has to be regenerated/saved prior to them being able to seek God.

I have to ask you why do you bother preaching the gospel message? Or perhaps you have never asked people to trust in God for their salvation.

I agree Christ came to seek sinners and since we are all sinners that means He came to seek all of us. He died to cover the sins of us all and God desires all to come to Him and all of us can be saved through trusting in Him but in your twisted philosophy God did not do any of those things.

 

[David Lamb]

The WCF and the LBCF may accord with the DoG but the DoG do not accord with scripture therefore the WCF and LBCF do not accord with scripture as you are suggesting.

The errant doctrines were brought into the church form pagan philosophy by Augustine and then Calvin and latter calvinists just carried them on.

Actually your DoG do question the sovereignty of God.

How do those doctrines question God's sovereignty?

 

[Silverhair]

How do those doctrines question God's sovereignty?

They are not biblical so it will cause people to question the truth of God and thus His sovereignty.

Also they require God to only act in the way that the DoG state.

The question for you is why would you use a false doctrine to support the sovereignty of God?

But I see that you agree that the DoG came from pagan philosophy.

 

[Van]

How do those doctrines question God's sovereignty?

Great Question!!

Thanks!!

First, let us define God's Sovereignty as God either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. If you or any advocate of these Doctrines or Exhaustive Determinism objects to this definition, then we can say with certainty that the Doctrines question God's sovereignty.

Is God the author of sin? No say published versions of the Doctrines. Thus God must allow but not cause people to sin.

Can God choose to redeem those of His choosing, those whose faith He credits as righteousness. If someones says no, they question God's sovereignty. However, anyone can assert that was not God's sovereign choice. But to deny that could be God's choice is to question His Sovereignty.

 

[David Lamb]

They are not biblical so it will cause people to question the truth of God and thus His sovereignty.

Also they require God to only act in the way that the DoG state.

The question for you is why would you use a false doctrine to support the sovereignty of God?

But I see that you agree that the DoG came from pagan philosophy.

In your opinion they are not biblical, but those of us who believe them believe that they are. That is why the statements of faith of local churches today that believe them include scriptural references, so do the historical confessions of faith they are based on, like the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith.

They don't "require God only to act in the way that the DoG state." The whole point of the sovereignty of God is that He does all His holy will - we cannot require Him to act in a certain way.

I don't need a false doctrine to support the sovereignty of God - the bible makes clear that God is sovereign in many places, for example:

“Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and [there is] no other; I am God, and there is]none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’” (Isa 46:9-10 NKJV)

I certainly don't have any idea of where you got the idea that I agree that the DoG came from pagan philosophy. I have had a quick look at my recent posts in this thread, but I cannot see anything to suggest such a thing - I don't believe that.

 

[canadyjd]

In your opinion they are not biblical, but those of us who believe them believe that they are. That is why the statements of faith of local churches today that believe them include scriptural references, so do the historical confessions of faith they are based on, like the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith.

They don't "require God only to act in the way that the DoG state." The whole point of the sovereignty of God is that He does all His holy will - we cannot require Him to act in a certain way.

I don't need a false doctrine to support the sovereignty of God - the bible makes clear that God is sovereign in many places, for example:

“Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and [there is] no other; I am God, and there is]none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’” (Isa 46:9-10 NKJV)

I certainly don't have any idea of where you got the idea that I agree that the DoG came from pagan philosophy. I have had a quick look at my recent posts in this thread, but I cannot see anything to suggest such a thing - I don't believe that.

All those words and you remain unable to engage Romans 9 beyond claiming my view is faulty.

Your false doctrine that many are saved having never heard the gospel makes a mockery of the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus.

Your attempt to deflect from this obvious truth by claiming you believe in God’s sovereignty and anyone who disagrees with you rejects God’s sovereignty, ignores the truth found in 1 Corinthians 1 that God, in His SOVEREIGNTY, ordained the method/means by which all who are saved must be save; the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You ignore scripture that conflicts with your secular, man made philosophy and attack any who points out your many errant views.

It is a waste of cyber space to attempt to dialog with you, so I am done. You can have the last word.

Please attempt to say something beyond the cowpie you usually spew.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

In your opinion they are not biblical, but those of us who believe them believe that they are. That is why the statements of faith of local churches today that believe them include scriptural references, so do the historical confessions of faith they are based on, like the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith.

They don't "require God only to act in the way that the DoG state." The whole point of the sovereignty of God is that He does all His holy will - we cannot require Him to act in a certain way.

I don't need a false doctrine to support the sovereignty of God - the bible makes clear that God is sovereign in many places, for example:

“Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and [there is] no other; I am God, and there is]none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’” (Isa 46:9-10 NKJV)

I certainly don't have any idea of where you got the idea that I agree that the DoG came from pagan philosophy. I have had a quick look at my recent posts in this thread, but I cannot see anything to suggest such a thing - I don't believe that.

I understand that those that believe the DoG think they biblical but the JW's and Mormons think they are Christians. Just because you think they are biblical does not make them biblical. The DoG calls the character of God into question.

The whole philosophy of calvinism can be traced back to Augustine who incorporated views from Stocism, Neoplatonism, Gnosticism and Manicheanism into his theology which Calvin carried forward and which we still see in calvinism/reformed/PB's today in your DoG and other teachings.

That philosophy has taken Gods' universal offer of salvation and through abuse of scripture made it into a lie.

I do find it odd that you would say that under your philosophy God can do as He pleases.

You did not question the fact that the DoG came from pagan philosophy at the time. But as you can see the roots of that philosophy is pagan. Augustine made the mistake of running to his prior pagan learning rather than just hold to scripture in his disagreement with Pelagius.

 

[Silverhair]

All those words and you remain unable to engage Romans 9 beyond claiming my view is faulty.

Your false doctrine that many are saved having never heard the gospel makes a mockery of the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus.

Your attempt to deflect from this obvious truth by claiming you believe in God’s sovereignty and anyone who disagrees with you rejects God’s sovereignty, ignores the truth found in 1 Corinthians 1 that God, in His SOVEREIGNTY, ordained the method/means by which all who are saved must be save; the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You ignore scripture that conflicts with your secular, man made philosophy and attack any who points out your many errant views.

It is a waste of cyber space to attempt to dialog with you, so I am done. You can have the last word.

Please attempt to say something beyond the cowpie you usually spew.

peace to you

All those words and yet you do not engage with Rom 9. You have yet to show why your unbiblical view should be considered valid.

You calvinist view is not the standard as much as you think it is.

You cannot even allow God to be sovereign. He has to follow your calvinism. Oh the arrogance you display.

But as is usual with you, you cannot defend your view so you run away.

 

[David Lamb]

All those words and you remain unable to engage Romans 9 beyond claiming my view is faulty.

Your false doctrine that many are saved having never heard the gospel makes a mockery of the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus.

Your attempt to deflect from this obvious truth by claiming you believe in God’s sovereignty and anyone who disagrees with you rejects God’s sovereignty, ignores the truth found in 1 Corinthians 1 that God, in His SOVEREIGNTY, ordained the method/means by which all who are saved must be save; the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You ignore scripture that conflicts with your secular, man made philosophy and attack any who points out your many errant views.

It is a waste of cyber space to attempt to dialog with you, so I am done. You can have the last word.

Please attempt to say something beyond the cowpie you usually spew.

peace to you

Sorry, you seem to be ascribing things to me that I didn't write. If the misunderstanding is my fault, I do apologise.

I have never written that many are saved having never heard the gospel. I have never said, either, that anyone who disagrees with me rejects God’s sovereignty. That sounds more like what you wrote about the doctrines of grace, saying that they call into question God's sovereignty.

Regarding spewing cowpie, we don't have that delicacy here in the UK, but the comment doesn't sound very pleasant. I am sorry you feel that way.

 

[canadyjd]

Sorry, you seem to be ascribing things to me that I didn't write. If the misunderstanding is my fault, I do apologise.

I have never written that many are saved having never heard the gospel. I have never said, either, that anyone who disagrees with me rejects God’s sovereignty. That sounds more like what you wrote about the doctrines of grace, saying that they call into question God's sovereignty.

Regarding spewing cowpie, we don't have that delicacy here in the UK, but the comment doesn't sound very pleasant. I am sorry you feel that way.

Apologies if I quoted you. I was replying to someone else.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Are the lost allowed to seek God? Yes.

Does God set before the lost the choice to fully embrace the gospel or not? Yes

Does scripture contain numerous verses indicating the lost seek God, successfully and unsuccessfully? Yes.

Do many seek to find the narrow path that leads to life? Yes