well, Dr Sproul and other Calvinists do not see it in that same way!
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Are There Any Verses That Show Predestination to Hell?
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
- Start date
Romans 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Who gives gift of eternal life to a person, without charge? Is it man who chooses to receive or God who chooses to give?
Those are just 3 verses that prove all humanity is predestined to hell, except by the grace of God.
Why would such a truth offend anyone whom God has chosen to give the gift of eternal life?
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Who gives gift of eternal life to a person, without charge? Is it man who chooses to receive or God who chooses to give?
Those are just 3 verses that prove all humanity is predestined to hell, except by the grace of God.
Why would such a truth offend anyone whom God has chosen to give the gift of eternal life?
Predestined For hell due to being still in Adam, or did the Lord actively determine that they would go there?
What did Calvin believe?
When you deny double predestination, you are merely playing word games to attempt to not admit the "dark side" of Calvinism.
Did not a famous Calvinist say "Not one leaf falls to the ground but that it was ordained by God."?
I [refer the Calvinism of the Bible to even the views of John Calvin, as one could use same argument to point out that non calls should applaud view Dr Pinnock ended up holding!
So God ordains and determines/causes us to sin, which would be against his very nature?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
1) "[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:22-24 ).
The vessels of wrath are fitted ( I believe it is in the passive sense, "to fit one's self" ) to destruction.
Yet they are still fitted for it, and the Lord did not prepare them as vessels of mercy before-hand.
2) " But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).
Here I see that the Gospel is actively hidden to the lost by Satan.
Yet, the Lord, who rules over His creation from His throne, has the final say in what Satan can and cannot do.
He can either keep allowing Satan to blind people, or make the devil to back off on someone's mind, if He so wishes.
That's why I see this passage as being true in the light of # 2:
" And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
25 in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 and [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." ( 2 Timothy 2:24-26 ).
3) " But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;" ( 2 Peter 2:12-13 ).
In the above, I see that false teachers, as the natural brute beasts that we all are outside of the new birth, are literally made to be taken and destroyed.
They also speak harshly of the things that they do not understand
4) " For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." ( Jude 1:4 ).
Certain men have crept in among believers, and they have done so with believers being caught unawares.
These men were before of old ordained ( appointed ) to the condemnation...
They are ungodly men who turn the grace of God into something irreverent, and deny Him and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I also believe that this "denial" is in context with Titus 1:6, where false brethren deny, in their actions, that they know the Lord.
"By their fruits ( Galatians 5:19-23 ) ye shall know them" ( per Matthew 7:16 ).
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If I were a Calvinist then yes, it would.
To be consistent, double predestination is a logical necessity of Calvinism.
But I am not a Calvinist. I do not base predestination and double predestination on divine decree.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Three verses that don't mention hell or predestination.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I understand His character as preferring or delighting to show His mercy...
but that He is also willing to show His wrath and to make His power known to His creation.
Ultimately, His own purposes with regard to His creation are all that matters.
Whether He grants mercy or condemns to Hell,
It is all done in perfect righteousness.
If He casts someone into Hell, it is for their sins...
If He reserves someone to Himself that deserved Hell, it is by His grace.
We as men have nothing to say about what He does.
See Daniel 4:35 and many others just like it.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Because the character of God is understood from His every word, not just a few books.
God does not go against His character, if that character is taken from everything that He has revealed.
God is love ( 1 John 4:7-21 )...
But God is also angry with the wicked ( Psalms 7:11 ), hates the worker of iniquity ( Psalms 5:5 ), loved Jacob and hated Esau ( Malachi 1:1-5, Romans 9:13 ), and abhors ( regards with disgust and hatred ) the covetous man ( Psalms 10:3 ).
Amen, Steven.
The Lord, in His character, is revealed in the totality of the Scriptures...
Each and every word.
The Old Testament is just as valid today, as it was when it was written by the Lord using the pens of men.
I see that when combined with the books of the New Testament, we gain a composite picture of who He is and what His overall character actually is.
To me, His holiness leads...
while His mercy and compassion are in context with His justice.
At the same time, He is slow to anger...
But will not leave the guilty unpunished.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
He's in deep sadly.
Many Calvinist do not accept Double Predestined though as held and defined by Calvin, see Dr Sproul!
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I think its a distiction without a difference.
I have no idea what Calvin personally believed. Do you?
Why would God's Sovereign foreknowledge and choice regarding his entire creation be a "dark side?" Is not God light and in Him is no darkness?
I find that those who despise the reality of God's Sovereign authority are really thinking their concept of morality and goodness determines who God is and what He can do without being blameworthy.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Scriptural authority is the calvinsts issue .
Yep, we believe that scripture is authoritative over human philosophy. Why do you fight against this truth?
Calm down and start making some sense again.
Calvin personally believed what we call double predestination. I put dark side in quotes. There was a book by that title and the term stuck. I personally see nothing dark about it, but many modern Calvinists run from it so they dont have to deal with it.
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