Are there Apostles today?

[prophecynut]

The context of 2 Peter 3:2 is the "day of the Lord"
We are to "recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets" concerning this day that follows the Church Age. The context is not about Christ building his church rather God's judgment in the day of the Lord.

 

[prophecynut]

OT prophets and the 12 apostles prophesied and spoke of that day (Mt. 24); the church apostles and prophets did not elaborate on the day of the Lord because it does not concern the church, which is in heaven during that day.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
The context of 2 Peter 3:2 is the "day of the Lord"
We are to "recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets" concerning this day that follows the Church Age. The context is not about Christ building his church rather God's judgment in the day of the Lord.

2 Peter 3:1-2 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

The context of these first two verses of this chapter is simply that they introduce the chapter, a chapter that directly leads into the things that will befall us "in the last days," in which scoffers will come...
The chapter speaks about much more than just the Second Coming or "The Day of the Lord."

Verse 2 is a reminder for them to keep in mind, a command not to forget God's revelation as a whole--the Old Testament Prophets, Jesus, the Apostles--these are the authors of our Scriptures. These are the ones that the Holy Spirit used to write the Bible. Don't forget to remember their words--God's words!
DHK

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by prophecynut:
The context of 2 Peter 3:2 is the "day of the Lord"
We are to "recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets" concerning this day that follows the Church Age. The context is not about Christ building his church rather God's judgment in the day of the Lord.

2 Peter 3:1-2 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

The context of these first two verses of this chapter is simply that they introduce the chapter, a chapter that directly leads into the things that will befall us "in the last days," in which scoffers will come...
The chapter speaks about much more than just the Second Coming or "The Day of the Lord."

Verse 2 is a reminder for them to keep in mind, a command not to forget God's revelation as a whole--the Old Testament Prophets, Jesus, the Apostles--these are the authors of our Scriptures. These are the ones that the Holy Spirit used to write the Bible. Don't forget to remember their words--God's words!
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]DHK, then with that same reasoning then how is it that Jude who doesn't claim to be an apostle written almost the same thing as Peter. Only he has something about praying in the Holy Ghost.

Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Sounds like he is speaking of the last days but he is saying to build yourself up by praying in the Holy Ghost.....any suggestion of what praying in the Holy Ghost is?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by music4Him:

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, [/i]

Sounds like he is speaking of the last days but he is saying to build yourself up by praying in the Holy Ghost.....any suggestion of what praying in the Holy Ghost is?

I just answered that briefly on another thread.
We are all indwelt with the Holy Spirit; that was the great event that took place at Pentecost. Every person from that time on was indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation.

I believe that praying in the Holy Spirit has to do with our relationsip with Christ. Psalm 66:18 says: If there is iniquity in my heart that the Lord will not hear me. I must be a clean vessel before I enter into sweet communion with the Lord. Sin must be confessed, or the Lord will not hear. I must learn "to wait upon Him." Allow the Holy Spirit to work in my life, guide and direct me, and through his word, convict me. This has nothing whatsoever to do with tongues. It is entering into fellowship with Christ. It is prayer.

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1John 1:6,7)
DHK

 

[bmerr]

To All,

bmerr here. This may have been covered already, (I haven't read all the posts on this topic), but one of the qualifications for an apostle was to have seen the resurrected Christ (Acts 1:22 - "to be a witness of his resurrection").

This is what the apostles were to bear witness of, the fact that Jesus Christ had been raised from the dead. What alot of people like to call "witnessing" today is not at all what the apostles were doing. But that's beside the point.

In 1 Cor 15:5-7, Paul speaks of several groups of people that had seen the resurrected Christ. In verse 8, Paul says, "And last of all, he was seen of me also, as one born out of due time."

Did everyone catch that? Paul was the last of all to see Jesus after the resurrection. "All" is pretty inclusive. Everyone fits into "all". Paul was the "last of all" to see the resurrected Christ. Therefore, Paul was the last of all who could meet the qualifications of an apostle. There are no more apostles.

Apostles (as well as prophets and others with miraculous gifts of the Spirit) had a purpose which is given in Eph 4:12, where it is written,

"For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ".

The next verse tells us when this purpose would be fulfilled. It is the same thing as is found in 1 Cor 13:10. It is the written word of God. Once the NT Scriptures were recorded, there was no more need for miraculous knowledge or prophesy. What would God have to say that He had not already said?

That's why today, man must get authority from the NT for all that he does in worship and practice. In addition, there are many principles of godliness to be learned from the OT Scriptures, as well (1 Cor 10:11).

Also unique to the apostles was Jesus promise that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth (John 16:13).

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[tamborine lady]

Bmerr said:Also unique to the apostles was Jesus promise that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth (John 16:13).

Tam asks: so the Apostles are the only ones that will be guided into all truth?

Selah,

Tam

 

[bmerr]

Tam,

bmerr here. Yes, the apostles were the ones who were to be guided into all truth miraculously by the Holy Spirit. We have all truth recorded for us in the Bible. We are to study to shew ourselves approved unto God (2 Tim 2:15). We need to study because we do not have (or have need of) miraculous knowledge. Otherwise, Paul would have told Timothy to allow the Holy Spirit to guide him into all truth, just as he had been as an apostle.

I think one of the major contributing factors in the various doctrines of men is the idea that "God laid ___________ on my heart", or that "the Holy Spirit prompted me to do/say ________."

Things like that would not be such a problem if the doctrines produced were not so contradictory. If God were the Author of denominationalism, He would be the Author of confusion. The unchurched world largely rejects Christ due to the vast sea of so-called churches all teaching conflicting doctrines while at the same time claiming to have the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's just not the case.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Link]

The Bible does not teach that an apostle had to have seen the Lord, though some try to deduce that from I Corinthians 9 and 15. Paul had seen the Lord.

And Paul was not saying he was the last person who would ever see the Lord, because Revelation shows John seeing the Lord after Paul did (assuming Paul was dead at that time.)

There were others called apostles after the Lord appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus like Paul, Silas, and Timothy. Please see previous posts in the thread.

 

[tamborine lady]

Bmerr said:bmerr here. Yes, the apostles were the ones who were to be guided into all truth miraculously by the Holy Spirit. We have all truth recorded for us in the Bible. We are to study to shew ourselves approved unto God (2 Tim 2:15). We need to study because we do not have (or have need of) miraculous knowledge. Otherwise, Paul would have told Timothy to allow the Holy Spirit to guide him into all truth, just as he had been as an apostle.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tam says: Bless your heart. I have no idea where you got that idea from. It could not have been fron the bible. Did you study that out for yourself or did you read it somewhere?

Where ever it was, I can say without a doubt that I have never come up with that idea and I have never heard it before.

But then I guess if you have to believe that all the gifts are gone, you have to explain away the Comforter too.

But I have a question, if what you propose is true, then how do we get saved? If the Holy Ghost is not "guiding into all truth" then how does He draw people to him?

We don't need miraculous knowledge????

I just can't fathom that someone would say that.

Too much,

Tam

One other question, if the bible is all we need, which version do we need? Because they don't always say the same thing

 

[music4Him]

quote by Tam:
-------------------------------------------------
One other question, if the bible is all we need, which version do we need? Because they don't always say the same thing.
-------------------------------------------------

Good point Tam!

I would say KJV only but even here on this board I see that some will take and twist or misinterpret the text (by other versions) or say there was a big "G" added where a little "g" should have been placed...ect. So I still belive we need miraculous knowledge and therefore be guided into all truth miraculously by the Holy Spirit.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Bmerr said:Also unique to the apostles was Jesus promise that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth (John 16:13).

Tam asks: so the Apostles are the only ones that will be guided into all truth?

Selah,

Tam

In a word to your above question: Yes, Bmerr is right on.
As a rule of thumb, the Bible has one interpretation, but many applications. He gave you the correct interpretations, though we apply the verse in various ways to our own personal situations. To rightly divide the word of truth, to get the correct interpretation, one needs to look at the context, the historical setting, to whom it was said, and who was saying it. Look at the passage:

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jesus is addressing his disciples (the 12). He has many things to tell them but it would be too much for them if he were try to relate it all right at that time. Therefore he says, He will send the Holy Spirit who would reveal what they would need to know in the future. Keep in mind that he is speaking to His disciples.

"When he is come he will guide you into all truth." There is not a person on this earth today that can claim that God guides them into all truth--that they perfectly understand and know the Bible--a perfect theology. Is this what it means? Obviously Not! But Charismatics blithely go on their way thinking that the Holy Spirit through their mystical experiences is guiding them into the truth, when nothing could be farther from the truth.

The Holy Spirit guided the Apostles in "all truth," as they wrote the inspired words of God. There are no mistakes in God's Word. It is perfect. He guided them into all truth--all the truth of the written Word. He didn't speak of himself but he spoke whatever he heard (from God the Father), and he would glorify God the Son (verse 17). He would show them things to come (the Book of Revelation). God does not give us that promise. That was a specific promise to the Apostles, the authors of the New Testament.

Only in application can we say that the Lord guides us. But we cannot say "in all truth." He doesn't because we are fallible men and women that make mistakes. We aren't perfect. And we never will be until we get to heaven.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

I believe that He is always guiding us. He doesn't give us the whole thing all at once. We receive things as we are able to handle them.

I'm glad to see DHK that you admit that even you do not have all the truth.

Selah,

Tam

 

[bmerr]

Tam,

bmerr here. In John 14:26 Jesus tells the 12, (actually 11, since Judas had already gone on his mission of betrayal), "But the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." Jesus has said nothing directly to anyone lately.

These guys were men, and I'm sure you are aware that men don't always remember everything they've been told (especially if you're married!

)

The Christian's main source of comfort is the word of God, (which was given to inspired men by the Holy spirit), from which we gain knowledge of the great and precious promises available through Christ. Where else can we learn of these things?

Think about it: if the Holy Spirit guided all Christians into all truth, what need was there for the apostles and prophets in the first place?

Your asked about how we are to be saved if the Holy Spirit doesn't draw us by guiding us into all truth. My dear, men have always been saved the same way since Acts 2. The gospel is preached. Those with honest and good hearts receive the word. They repent of their sins. They confess Jesus Christ as the Son of God. They submit to baptism for the remission of their sins. They continue if faithfulness until death.

Rom 1:16 tells us that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.

2 Thes 2:14 tells us that the Christians at Thesalonica had been called by the gospel Paul had preached to them.

The Holy Spirit draws men, but not by a direct operation upon the heart. He draws men by the preaching of the gospel. How were you called?

Concerning Bible versions, sadly there are far more unreliable ones than reliable ones. I usually stick to the KJ. Many like to run it down, but it hasn't steered anyone wrong that wasn't bent on going the wrong way in the first place.

Beyond that, the ASV 1901 edition is held as being a good translation, (some prefer it for the NT). I have one, but like I said, I usually stick to the KJ.

The NKJV is viewed by many as being pretty good, too, but I don't like it personally. I prefer the higher English in the KJ and ASV 1901. Those "thee's" and "thou's" make it unmistakable the it's God's word being read. IMO, anyway.

Well, there you have it. Hope it helps.

In Christ,

bmerr

P.S. DHK, I appreciate the confimation.

 

[tamborine lady]

Tam

 

[bmerr]

Tam,

bmerr here. I see you put a lot of thought into your reply. Is that all you can come up with?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

I believe that He is always guiding us. He doesn't give us the whole thing all at once. We receive things as we are able to handle them.

I'm glad to see DHK that you admit that even you do not have all the truth.

Selah,

Tam

That is right I don't have all the truth.
And what is more I won't have all the truth even in heaven.
Jesus alone is the Truth, and I plan to be sitting at his feet learning from him for all eternity. Yes, I will be learning. If I am learning it goes to say that I do not, and will not have ALL the truth. No one does. Any one who claims they do is a making a claim of deity--a claim of omniscience.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

But isn't it wonderful that we can all continue to learn His wonderful truthes until we go to be with Him?


Glory,

Tam

 

[bmerr]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Tam

Tam,

bmerr here. I don't mean this like it will probably sound, but isn't there more to contibute to the search for truth than what you offered above? Truth is far more important than that, for without it, we cannot be made free.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[tamborine lady]

Dear Bmerr,

I'm sorry, but when I read your post it just really struck me funny.

The Bible says that "my sheep know my voice and another they will not follow". So when you said:Jesus has said nothing directly to anyone lately., I coudn't help but wonder how we could know his voice if nobody hears from him. If he didn't mean what he said then what do you think he meant?

I do not take the word of God lightly, but when people pass over important stuff, it gets real old trying to wake them up.

Selah,

Tam