Are there Catholics and Orthodox that are practicing and saved?

[Pastor Larry]

OK. I thought you were sincere, but now I see that you're just playing games.

I am very sincere. Trust me, you have never met anyone more sincere than I am. I would like to have you answers these questions so I can get some idea of where you are coming from.

What do you mean by "serve sin"?
What do think you Romans 6:12ff. mean?
Why did you change from "Can a believer serve sin" to a believer having assurance of salvation?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I am very sincere. Trust me, you have never met anyone more sincere than I am. I would like to have you answers these questions so I can get some idea of where you are coming from.

Oh, I can tell. I mistakenly thought you were sincere and I did try to answer your questions, but everytime I did, you just wanted to play games and twist what I said and claim that the Bible doesn't really say what it says.

I really have no desire to play such foolish games with you.

Why did you change from "Can a believer serve sin" to a believer having assurance of salvation?

I didn't change anything and I believe that the rest of the people reading this thread are intelligent enough to see that I didn't change anything.

If you really believe that a born again believer can serve sin then you have no business being behind a pulpit.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Oh, I can tell.

No you can't. I guarantee you that you have never met anyone more sincere than I am. I haven't played word games.

I didn't change anything and I believe that the rest of the people reading this thread are intelligent enough to see that I didn't change anything.

but you did. The question was "Can a believer serve sin?" You answer No, I answered Yes. In arguing for that, you cite 1 John 3:7-10 and say "No, what it would lead to is the understanding that one cannot continue to serve sin and have any assurance of his salvation." To that, you and I would both say "yes." So how is it that we differ on one question and agree on another unless you are apparently asking two different questions?

If you really believe that a born again believer can serve sin then you have no business being behind a pulpit.

Then tell me what you think Paul meant in Romans 6:12ff? I assume you think he had business standing behind a pulpit, and I think I agree with him. So show me where I am wrong. Tell me what you mean by "serve sin." Perhaps we mean the same thing.

For instance, do you think a believer can be addicted to things like drugs, alcohol, or sex? If not, do you think all addicts are unbelievers? If so, do you think addiction is something other than serving sin?

Perhaps you can see why I am struggling to understand what you mean. You seem to be ignoring Romans 6:12ff, which I cited above and have asked several times for an explanation. You seem to ignore the experience that Paul recounts in Romans 7 (unless you think he was describing himself as an unbeliever there). You seem to ignore what many of us have seen and experienced in ministry. Maybe your experience in not yet broad enough to have seen it yet.

Calling me unfit for ministry doesn't really help me (or anyone else) understand your point.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

No you can't. I guarantee you that you have never met anyone more sincere than I am. I haven't played word games.

but you did. The question was "Can a believer serve sin?" You answer No, I answered Yes. In arguing for that, you cite 1 John 3:7-10 and say "No, what it would lead to is the understanding that one cannot continue to serve sin and have any assurance of his salvation." To that, you and I would both say "yes." So how is it that we differ on one question and agree on another unless you are apparently asking two different questions?
Then tell me what you think Paul meant in Romans 6:12ff? I assume you think he had business standing behind a pulpit, and I think I agree with him. So show me where I am wrong. Tell me what you mean by "serve sin." Perhaps we mean the same thing.

For instance, do you think a believer can be addicted to things like drugs, alcohol, or sex? If not, do you think all addicts are unbelievers? If so, do you think addiction is something other than serving sin?

Perhaps you can see why I am struggling to understand what you mean. You seem to be ignoring Romans 6:12ff, which I cited above and have asked several times for an explanation. You seem to ignore the experience that Paul recounts in Romans 7 (unless you think he was describing himself as an unbeliever there). You seem to ignore what many of us have seen and experienced in ministry. Maybe your experience in not yet broad enough to have seen it yet.

Calling me unfit for ministry doesn't really help me (or anyone else) understand your point.

Bye bye, Larry. I'm not playing your games anymore.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Bye bye, Larry. I'm not playing your games anymore.

I assume you can't defend your position then. I am not playing games, and you know that. IMO, you have been backed into a corner and you have no answers.

You apparently can't explain what Romans 6:12ff mean without contradicting your position. You haven't told us what you think it means to serve sin.

I think Romans 6:12ff is clear. Paul commands believers not to serve sin, precisely because they are able to.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I assume you can't defend your position then. I am not playing games, and you know that. IMO, you have been backed into a corner and you have no answers.

You apparently can't explain what Romans 6:12ff mean without contradicting your position. You haven't told us what you think it means to serve sin.

I think Romans 6:12ff is clear. Paul commands believers not to serve sin, precisely because they are able to.

Sure, Larry, whatever. Sorry, but you can't goad me into playing your foolish games.

Is this really behavior becoming of a pastor?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Sure, Larry, whatever. Sorry, but you can't goad me into playing your foolish games.

Answer the questions. There are no games here on my part.

Is this really behavior becoming of a pastor?

Absolutely. I think theological discussion about key issues and seeking the understanding of others is very becoming of a pastor. It should be something we all do.

You think I am wrong, but you won't tell me what you are talking about or how you understand a key passage that seems to contradict you. I am not in the wrong here. I am simply asking the questions:

What do you mean by "serve sin"?
What do think you Romans 6:12ff. mean?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Answer the questions. There are no games here on my part.

Nope. I did answer your questions and all you wanted to do was play childish games.

You really need to grow up.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I tried to answer your questions and you just wanted to play games.

You are plainly and clearly wrong about this since I have no desire to play games. There is no dispute about that.

But that aside, where did you offer an answer to these two questions?

What do you mean by "serve sin"?
What do think you Romans 6:12ff. mean?

I do not recall seeing answers to either, but perhaps I missed them. Kindly provide a link to it and I will be glad to take a look.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You are plainly and clearly wrong about this since I have no desire to play games. There is no dispute about that.

But that aside, where did you offer an answer to these two questions?

What do you mean by "serve sin"?
What do think you Romans 6:12ff. mean?

I do not recall seeing answers to either, but perhaps I missed them. Kindly provide a link to it and I will be glad to take a look.

Grow up, Larry.

 

[steaver]

This is a "debate" board JohnDeerefan. If you answered the questions presented in this deabte just point to them. This is how we ALL have debates. Many times one will say "i already answered" at which time they point to the post or repost it.

So what's the problem? BTW, Larry has been MOST Christlike in his post.

:jesus:

 

[historyb]

So, If I have faith in Jesus. I don't need to go to church. I don't need to feed the poor, I don't need the help the sick, I don't need help the orphan or the widow. I just need faith? Right?.

Aw, the twist been a bit since I seen such nonsense. Makes me feel all homey, yes I like have you twist things out of context the RCC must be proud of you!

BTW Catholics believe that they are saved by Faith but a faith in action which James speaks about:

If you believe that than there is a Bridge in the middle of Arizona that you should buy

James seems pretty clear. Faith must be one of Action. Just having faith is pointless with out the action. Even the theif on the cross had action:
He proclaimed the truth before the assembly! I think its presumptuous to say I need faith alone but can do anything I want and be saved. This is clearly what James was speaking against. I'm still looking for where the CC is not proclaiming the gospel. There are a lot of Ad Hominem attacks on the CC but no evidence. Because there are people who are Catholic and probably do all the things you accuse them of the are those who don't and the CC doesn't teach it. The church I attend teaches against adultery yet I know for fact there are baptist involved in that practice! Should I judge the Baptist by these? I Know there are baptist that get toasted drinking. Should I likewise judge the church they go to by their behavior? No. I can look at what they teach its up to the members on how they live. The Martyrs described in Revelation knows they have not yet been avenvenged. So they are clear on what is happening here. By the way that was a Good question about John the Apostle looking at himself. But the point is that when we die we are not dead. We are still performing functions. BTW DHK quoted a verse that says "we shall be like him for we will see him face to face" We will be like Christ. And what does that mean? Jesus was the servant and taught us to serve. Here's the point. "This new commandment I give to you that you love one another" Which means service. Therefore, does my service die when my body does? God forbid! In heaven we will glorify the lord and participate in his body. Now does that mean praying for those here left in this world of sin? I don't know but its not a big jump. Can God tell me who to pray for? I'm certain. God tells me now who to pray for. Will all that stop when I die?

I was lost in that pagan religion and I know what they believe so don't you dare to presume to act all holy and tell me what you learned which is not the RCC teaching. To even hope to go to their heaven you must not do any mortal sins, you must go to their pagan masses, and go to thier pagan confessions and then your not really sure anyway.

To get to Heaven there is one way, by Faith in Christ Alone no other way will do. YOU CAN NOT WORK YOU WAY THERE AS CATHOLICS THINK THEY CAN

 

[Pastor Larry]

JohnDeereFan,

Where did you offer an answer to these two questions?

What do you mean by "serve sin"?
What do think you Romans 6:12ff. mean?

I do not recall seeing answers to either, but perhaps I missed them. Kindly provide a link to it and I will be glad to take a look.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

So what's the problem? BTW, Larry has been MOST Christlike in his post.

Certainly not the Christ I see in scripture. Somehow I just can't imagine Christ doing that.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Certainly not the Christ I see in scripture. Somehow I just can't imagine Christ doing that.

Doing what? You really can't imagine Christ asking someone to explain what their view is and how it fits in with certain passages of Scripture?

(I can't imagine that either, but only because he already knows. Not being omniscient, I have to ask you to clarify what your view is and how it fits with Romans 6:12ff.)

I would like to add a third question: What exactly is your problem with what I have done here?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Aw, the twist been a bit since I seen such nonsense. Makes me feel all homey, yes I like have you twist things out of context the RCC must be proud of you!



If you believe that than there is a Bridge in the middle of Arizona that you should buy



I was lost in that pagan religion and I know what they believe so don't you dare to presume to act all holy and tell me what you learned which is not the RCC teaching. To even hope to go to their heaven you must not do any mortal sins, you must go to their pagan masses, and go to thier pagan confessions and then your not really sure anyway.

To get to Heaven there is one way, by Faith in Christ Alone no other way will do. YOU CAN NOT WORK YOU WAY THERE AS CATHOLICS THINK THEY CAN

Again with the Ad Hominem attacks. First of All if you haven't read my posts, I was raised a Catholic. In fact, I was confirmend by a Nuncio or Pro Nuncio. My Father recieved his undergraduate Degree at a Jesuit University. I have been to Rome/Vatican. I left the chruch at an early age yet that has not stopped my discourses with my family save my mother who hasn't spoken to me for 20 years. And even then I had to make the first advance to re-establish a relationship. So don't presume that I don't know. There is a difference between what the Church officially teaches and those who are members act on and obey. Prove your point. Go beyond: "its a Godless pagan religion". Put forth your argument. The Catholic Church as two primary methods of Catachicize its members. Scriptures and Tradition which BTW is in the Mass and the recesitation of the Nicean Creed but also writen in the Catachism. Often times (more than not) the consepts overlap. Its by these primary documents that You should make your argument rather than just accuse. Also keep in mind that the Term Satan or Ha Satan is the Accuser which is the fallen's angel's primary occupation. Something I always think about when the accusations fly. Otherwise you are just spouting off. I went to a Pentecostal University to learn about the doctrine and the belief systems of Pentecostals (which strangely are close to Wesley in some respects) and come to dislike that movement. However, I will not say they are a pagan Godless faith. Though the things I've seen and experience fall very much into that catagory. So take the higher road and put forth a good argument.

 

[historyb]

I will not debate this anymore, I know what I know

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I will not debate this anymore, I know what I know

Thats ashame. I was looking foreward to really good input and sound argument from you since you were once Catholic. Which makes me wonder about something. DHK also once a Catholic and you have strong views with regard to that faith. But when questioned the attacks start with little substantive evidence. Which makes me think that the complaint is an emotional one or at least emotionally based. I left the Church at 15 so I may not have as much invested to be hurt. However, I've never felt the complete anger and repulsion as I've seen by you two. So its a personal issue for you. However, I'm certain both of you can be reasonable and disagree with Mormons or JW rather than just call it a pagan religion. I find this curious behavior.

 

[historyb]

Actually I am not hurt, I just get to emotional in debates. I am not a good debater at all, I can't divorce my emotions from the debate yet. Makes me wish I was a Vulcan so I could.

In fact there are a lot of things I don't think are bad like a liturgical style of worship and other things, if I had one close to me I would be a member of the Reformed Episcopal Church

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Actually I am not hurt, I just get to emotional in debates. I am not a good debater at all, I can't divorce my emotions from the debate yet. Makes me wish I was a Vulcan so I could.

In fact there are a lot of things I don't think are bad like a liturgical style of worship and other things, if I had one close to me I would be a member of the Reformed Episcopal Church

:laugh: Live long and Prosper.