Are there Catholics and Orthodox that are practicing and saved?

[DHK]

Are you sure? What if his teaching was taught before yours? That would question heresy would it not? What if there are scripture verse to prove his point? How about what I posted Just before Agnus Dei in post 277?

If I read 277 properly you seem to imply that justification is a process and not an event which the Bible does not teach.
It indeed is a one-time event. The Bible as a whole must be taken together, not just one verse out of its context. There are man cults, Church of Christ, and others that rely simply on one or two verses in the NT, (such as Acts 2:38) while ignoring scores if not hundreds of others which proclaim in no uncertain words that salvation is by faith (alone), without works, and that it is a one-time event. The Bible does not contradict itself.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

There are hundreds more.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

If I read 277 properly you seem to imply that justification is a process and not an event which the Bible does not teach.
It indeed is a one-time event. The Bible as a whole must be taken together, not just one verse out of its context. There are man cults, Church of Christ, and others that rely simply on one or two verses in the NT, (such as Acts 2:38) while ignoring scores if not hundreds of others which proclaim in no uncertain words that salvation is by faith (alone), without works, and that it is a one-time event. The Bible does not contradict itself.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

There are hundreds more.

This entire post begs the question: If faith alone saves, which it does, and I do have faith, though I may think that my works matter, is my faith invalidated by my belief that my works must accompany my faith?

If faith according to grace is all that saves, which it plainly is, then I would contend that there are many saved Catholics & Orthodox believers just as much as there are saved people of any Christian denomination who don't have ALL of their theology right... uh... like all of us...

Further, do you really believe that only Catholics believe that their works are a part of salvation? The only difference between them and the scores of Evangelicals who are addicted to doing good works, trying to please God out of a sense of guilt, shame, or whatever underlying reason, is that they honestly proclaim that they believe works are part of salvation; many Evangelicals say it with their deeds and attitudes, if not with their lips.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If I read 277 properly you seem to imply that justification is a process and not an event which the Bible does not teach.
It indeed is a one-time event. The Bible as a whole must be taken together, not just one verse out of its context. There are man cults, Church of Christ, and others that rely simply on one or two verses in the NT, (such as Acts 2:38) while ignoring scores if not hundreds of others which proclaim in no uncertain words that salvation is by faith (alone), without works, and that it is a one-time event. The Bible does not contradict itself.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

There are hundreds more.

and vis versa

Acts 10:43 is only one part of the story

43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Then this

48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Because he equates the giving of the Holy Spirit with the remission of sins through baptism

Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have

Also you only tell part of the story in chp 16

31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

but leave out

then immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family.

Again with ephesians you only tell part of the story

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast

but conviently leave out the rest of the statement

10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

and again in Romans 5:1

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

and leave out the rest

2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God

access in which we now stand so that they could

rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

Where by James is clear when he says

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]?

because

Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead

very clear. And there are a hundred such verses. Even Jesus tells us

46"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice

Even John 3:16 is quoted and this verse is over looked

21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]

And anothing I find strange is all this talk about justification and being like Christ but one of the things Jesus reiterates time and again is that He is doing the Father's will. So we must live our faith in obedience to God. Not just run around saying "I have faith... I'm cool nothing more be said" with out obedience to the father or Jesus teachings its a waste.

 

[DHK]

If faith according to grace is all that saves, which it plainly is, then I would contend that there are many saved Catholics & Orthodox believers just as much as there are saved people of any Christian denomination who don't have ALL of their theology right... uh... like all of us...

Can one believe Islam and be a Christian at the same time? I believe the answer is obvious.
It is impossible to completely understand RCC or Orthodox doctrine of salvation and what the Bible says about salvation and be saved at the same time. In other words I don't believe that any of these RCC apologists can be saved because of their knowledge of the RCC faith, and their knowledge of the gospel. Their hearts have become "seared as with a hot iron."
When I was saved I remained in the RCC for two years. I was a Catholic and saved at the same time. That was out of ignorance. Not until I grew enough in Christ and sat down with Bible in hand, and then compared RCC doctrine with the Bible did I make a conscious decision to leave the RCC because I could see how the RCC contradicted the Bible. One cannot serve two masters.

Further, do you really believe that only Catholics believe that their works are a part of salvation?

No, many religions believe the same thing. All of them are leading people to Hell, for that is not the gospel. A gospel of works saves no one.

The only difference between them and the scores of Evangelicals who are addicted to doing good works, trying to please God out of a sense of guilt, shame, or whatever underlying reason, is that they honestly proclaim that they believe works are part of salvation;

And they are wrong, and taking away from the sufficiency of the blood of Christ. They infer that the blood of Christ was not good enough, sufficient enough to atone for their sins. Christ wasn't perfect enough. They have to help him to atone for their sins by their works. What a shame to trample under foot the blood of Christ.

many Evangelicals say it with their deeds and attitudes, if not with their lips.

Many people judge hearts and when they can't see them.

 

[DHK]

and vis versa

Acts 10:43 is only one part of the story Then this Because he equates the giving of the Holy Spirit with the remission of sins through baptism
Also you only tell part of the story in chp 16 but leave out Again with ephesians you only tell part of the story but conviently leave out the rest of the statement and again in Romans 5:1 and leave out the rest access in which we now stand so that they could Where by James is clear when he says because very clear. And there are a hundred such verses. Even Jesus tells us Even John 3:16 is quoted and this verse is over looked And anothing I find strange is all this talk about justification and being like Christ but one of the things Jesus reiterates time and again is that He is doing the Father's will. So we must live our faith in obedience to God. Not just run around saying "I have faith... I'm cool nothing more be said" with out obedience to the father or Jesus teachings its a waste.

What did you want me to do quote the whole Bible, or just the NT?
Your taking Scripture out of context isn't worth my replying to.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What did you want me to do quote the whole Bible, or just the NT?
Your taking Scripture out of context isn't worth my replying to.

That's my contention towards you. :tear: I was saying you only show part of an overall idea. Omitting the rest of it.

 

[DHK]

That's my contention towards you. :tear: I was saying you only show part of an overall idea. Omitting the rest of it.

Your "contention" was moot.
Your answers made no sense. They were an obvious twisting of the Scripture. For example, when the Philippian jailor believed, then he was baptized. Why then quote further Scripture? Are simply trying to twist the meaning to make Scripture mean something it does not? Do you want me to take that entire chapter (Acts 16) and go through it verse by verse to show how wrong you are?

As I contend, there are hundreds of verses that demonstrate that salvation is by faith and faith alone. There are only a couple that one can use to prop up the heresy of baptismal regeneration, and even then they must twist the verse, take it out of context, and do some serious butchering of the verse. To those I say take warning:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Surfer Joe]

God can do anything. He is omnipotent. But He doesn't do anything. He doesn't do that which is against His nature. He doesn't do that which is against His Word. He doesn't contradict Himself.
To say that God would put faith in an infant would contradict the very words of the Scriptures which God wrote. He gave man the free will to choose between good and evil. An infant has no will to choose between good and evil. It is impossible for him to have faith--no matter what your faith is.

]Ok...so you're not a Calvinist then. That's fine.[endquote]

Define Christ's Church. You attend the UCC. Is that "Christ's Church? No, it is not. If you have been influenced by the COC teaching on ecclesiology than I can see why you may be confused on what the church is.

]No, the UCC is just a denomination. Christ's Church is made up of all those throughout the world who believe in Him. The Church is the body of believers.[endquote]

There were churches long before there was any concept of a universal church. Paul went on three different missionary journeys and established over 100 churches. His epistles were written to churches, not "the church," and to pastors of churches, not "the church." It was the early believers, members of actual believers who preserved the word of God. The apostles had taught them which were inspired and which were not.

Of course his letters were written to churches but that does not mean there is no such thing as "the church". Doesn't Peter tell pastors to shepherd the "church of God"? Or is that Paul? I'll have to look. The apostles didn't know that their letters were Scripture at the time. As you said, they were writing letters to individual churches. It was not decided which were inspired and which were not until 300 years later no?[endquote]

Some use the Majority Text, presumably because the majority of the "churches" used those particular texts. They didn't have to depend on the RCC or the Orthodox for the preservation of the Scriptures.
One needs to recognize the importance of the "churches" throughout history.

You can't forget that the RCC is just another denomination. The Church by God's grace preserved the Scriptures. The RCC as it is known did not exist at the time of the apostles.

 

[Surfer Joe]

PS Can anyone tell me how to insert posts within someone else's quote?

 

[Surfer Joe]

Agnus Dei...



The Orthodox??? Guided into all truth for 2000 years?

Then whats the deal with that goddess worship directed to a counterfiet Mary?

And whats the deal with that condemnation of the gospel of Jesus Christ...justification by faith in Christ alone...and replacing it with a false gospel that will not save...justification by faith + works?

And whats the deal with including tradition as a truth standard along with scripture, while Christ specifically condemned that idea?

Simple enough answer. They do not worship Mary.

As for justification, I think you misunderstand them. They take James at his word and believe that in order for your faith to be real it has to produce works.

Jesus didn't condemn all traditions. If He did then Paul would not have exhorted Timothy to keep the traditions which he had been taught. What He condemned was pharisees holding to their traditions and completely ignoring Christ, grace, and everything else.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Your "contention" was moot.
Your answers made no sense. They were an obvious twisting of the Scripture. For example, when the Philippian jailor believed, then he was baptized. Why then quote further Scripture? Are simply trying to twist the meaning to make Scripture mean something it does not? Do you want me to take that entire chapter (Acts 16) and go through it verse by verse to show how wrong you are?

As I contend, there are hundreds of verses that demonstrate that salvation is by faith and faith alone. There are only a couple that one can use to prop up the heresy of baptismal regeneration, and even then they must twist the verse, take it out of context, and do some serious butchering of the verse. To those I say take warning:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

WHY? Why? Really?

To take the verses in their context. It's point less to quote "Jesus wept" unless you take it in context of why he's weeping. As I contend there are hundreds of verses to substantiate my point. and with 2 Peter 3:16 you again take a verse out of context:

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]

11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Which verses in context and as a whole substantiate the point I've been making. So this warning may be contrarily made towards the "half" points you've been making.

 

[DHK]

Jesus didn't condemn all traditions. If He did then Paul would not have exhorted Timothy to keep the traditions which he had been taught. What He condemned was pharisees holding to their traditions and completely ignoring Christ, grace, and everything else.

Paul never exhorted Timothy to keep "traditions" as defined by the RCC.
You misunderstand the verse as translated by the KJV.
According to the RCC a tradition is "a teaching or practice passed on from generation to generation throughout the centuries."
Christ died 29 A.D. and Pentecost was shortly after.
Paul wrote to the Thessalonians less than 30 years after that.
What Christian traditions (passed on from generation to generation over the centuries) did Paul teach Timothy within a span of 30 years??
It is obvious that the RCC forced meaning of tradition is not meant here, nor can ever be.

The meaning is "spiritual truths." He was telling them to hold on to the truth that I have taught you. There was no tradition, but the truth that he had taught them, whether orally or by letter; whether by preaching from the Word, or by writing; it didn't make a difference. It was still the truth of the Word of God. That is what was given, not so-called tradition.

 

[DHK]

WHY? Why? Really?

To take the verses in their context. It's point less to quote "Jesus wept" unless you take it in context of why he's weeping. As I contend there are hundreds of verses to substantiate my point. and with 2 Peter 3:16 you again take a verse out of context:

The verses I have quoted are not out of context as any reader can see.
Jesus did weep. You don't believe he did? Do you need an extended context to tell you that he did? Unbelievable! Either you believe he wept or he didn't? It is not a verse to be allegorized.

The same with Rom.5:1
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--It is a straighforward literal statement that needs no allegorization. It is truth. If you want the why's and wherefore's then study the rest of the book. But for the meaning of this verse it is all right here.
It is as clear as "Jesus wept." I don't need any further context to know that Jesus was a person that had feelings and wept. If you want the why's and wherefore's then study all of John 11, but just to know that he wept, I only have to understand those two words of John 11:35.

Which verses in context and as a whole substantiate the point I've been making. So this warning may be contrarily made towards the "half" points you've been making.

The extended context does not change the truth presented. If it does show me. Show me how the verse I quoted is "out of its context." It teaches a truth. The truth still stands.

 

[Matt Black]

This entire post begs the question: If faith alone saves, which it does, and I do have faith, though I may think that my works matter, is my faith invalidated by my belief that my works must accompany my faith?

If faith according to grace is all that saves, which it plainly is, then I would contend that there are many saved Catholics & Orthodox believers just as much as there are saved people of any Christian denomination who don't have ALL of their theology right... uh... like all of us...

Further, do you really believe that only Catholics believe that their works are a part of salvation? The only difference between them and the scores of Evangelicals who are addicted to doing good works, trying to please God out of a sense of guilt, shame, or whatever underlying reason, is that they honestly proclaim that they believe works are part of salvation; many Evangelicals say it with their deeds and attitudes, if not with their lips.

Agreed on all points; that's kind of what I was trying to say a few pages back when I referred to Catholics and Orthodox who truly are devoted to the Lord not being condemned by Him just because aspects of their theology are incorrect

 

[Zenas]

According to the RCC a tradition is "a teaching or practice passed on from generation to generation throughout the centuries."

DHK, I note that you used quotation marks. Who or what are you quoting?

 

[DHK]

DHK, I note that you used quotation marks. Who or what are you quoting?

It was from an old Catholic Encyclopedia that I read some years ago. I remember what it said for I have used it often enough. As the adage goes: "If you don't use it you lose it."

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The verses I have quoted are not out of context as any reader can see.
Jesus did weep. You don't believe he did? Do you need an extended context to tell you that he did? Unbelievable! Either you believe he wept or he didn't? It is not a verse to be allegorized.

The same with Rom.5:1
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--It is a straighforward literal statement that needs no allegorization. It is truth. If you want the why's and wherefore's then study the rest of the book. But for the meaning of this verse it is all right here.
It is as clear as "Jesus wept." I don't need any further context to know that Jesus was a person that had feelings and wept. If you want the why's and wherefore's then study all of John 11, but just to know that he wept, I only have to understand those two words of John 11:35.

The extended context does not change the truth presented. If it does show me. Show me how the verse I quoted is "out of its context." It teaches a truth. The truth still stands.

Nonsense DHK. Context is everything. Your quotes were singeling out a verse rather than the entire context. As far as Jesus wept of course we believe that he did but you have to take the verse in the context of why he wept. You can't build a theology just out of "Jesus wept" or if you do you would be misguided. What is the point of Justifying man? Just for personal relationship with God? Yes, thats one part but is it all parts? We were created and saved to do good works. Not that they in and of themselves save. In otherwords, God doesn't save us to have a big chatting party whilst sitting on our thumbs. But to do good works. And if you believe you're living out your salvation (with fear and trembeling) you should be doing good works.

 

[Gup20]

PS Can anyone tell me how to insert posts within someone else's quote?

You use a tag that has these brackets: [ and ]. The tag to quote a specific person, open with this bracket "[" then type "quote" and then if you want to quote a specific person's name type "=[persons name] and then wrap it up with a "]". Then enter the quote. Then, at the end of the quote, open with "[" then add "/quote", then close with the bracket "]".

If you use the "QUOTE" button at the bottom of an post, you will see the proper format.

Additionally, you can highlight some text and use the "wrap quote tags around selected text" button on the toolbar at the top.

So for example to quote someone I would do:

[ quote = (personsname) ] this is the text I am quoting. [ /quote ] (remove all the spaces in the quote tags)

 

[Gup20]

First I think for Agnus Dei to make sence in this sense is that Salvation is not just a one time event. But you are Saved in that God Chose you to be saved and offered you faith. You are Saved in that you accepted to believe in God and accept the Faith given you.

Sorry, I don't subscribe to Calvinism because I believe it to be a humanist doctrine. It is a means of blaming God for the evil and sin in the world, rather than man.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

That you are being saved in that you live your life according to the teachings of Jesus. And you will be saved when you have percervered to the end and attained heaven. So at once you have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved. So from this consept Acts 2:38 is read You've believed now repent and be baptised for the Remission of sins.

As Abraham was, I am made righteous by my faith in Jesus Christ alone, prior to water baptism.

Which Matches Perfectly with what Justin Martyr says around AD 160

I prefer to stick to Biblical references.

Thereby being "born again" is effected at baptism as Jesus told Nicodemus And so being baptised in the water at the same time the spirit so in this respect you are only partly saying something true with Agnus Dei's belief. The baptism cleanses you spiritually and the Holy Spirit comes to you as a regenerated man. Or "born again". For the Classical Christian the "sacraments" accomplish what they represent.

Or, like circumcision was for Abraham, it is a seal and a sign of the saving faith that precedes it. As James says, faith without works is dead, but works alone is nothing. If you truly believe something, then it will affect your actions.

 

[Gup20]

This entire post begs the question: If faith alone saves, which it does, and I do have faith, though I may think that my works matter, is my faith invalidated by my belief that my works must accompany my faith?

It depends. Is your faith in Jesus Christ and his work on the cross, or is your faith in faith itself?

I would say no - if you have real faith in Jesus Christ then your faith is not invalidated by your works, but confirmed by your works.

If faith according to grace is all that saves, which it plainly is, then I would contend that there are many saved Catholics & Orthodox believers just as much as there are saved people of any Christian denomination who don't have ALL of their theology right... uh... like all of us...

Amen.

Further, do you really believe that only Catholics believe that their works are a part of salvation? The only difference between them and the scores of Evangelicals who are addicted to doing good works, trying to please God out of a sense of guilt, shame, or whatever underlying reason, is that they honestly proclaim that they believe works are part of salvation; many Evangelicals say it with their deeds and attitudes, if not with their lips.

This is very much true. I have a question for you, though - Do you think that the idea that one can "lose their salvation" has proliferated this salvation by works mindset unintentionally?

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
​

Isn't the reverse of this also true - that one cannot lose their salvation by lack of good works? If it was begun in the spirit, and cannot be affected by works, it should be logically consistent that one wouldn't lose their salvation by a lack of good works.