One could say the same thing about men like Paul Washer. Some of his messages may be good on the surface. But much of what he believes I would never recommend to my people. The same would go for MacArthur and Piper.
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Are There Such as "carnal" Christians?
- Thread starter JesusFan
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freeatlast
New Member
You and Icon are saying one must be sinless to be a true christian.
With you view point you must feel that scripture lied about Lot.
Peter made it very clear about Lot and the person who becomes carnal.
2 Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
Notice he says Lot was just, he had been justified by Faith, yet he was vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked, he was just but was as one of them. That righteous man (Lot) dwelt amoung them, seeing and hearing he vexed his righteous soul from day to day. Sounds very much like a just, righteous saved man can fall back into sin. Not as you and ICON and others see a believer must live a sinless life and stay upright through his walk. Either Peter was wrong in saying Lot was a just and righteous man living in sin or your way of thinking might need to be looked at. Lot never fully returned to God he dwelt in caves and had sons by his dughters, yet Peter says He was just and righteous. He was a carnal believer scripture affirms it. Notice agian what Paul said to the Romans in chapter 8: 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
We are not debtors to the flesh to live after is but i we (Paul is speaking to believers) live after the flesh, sounds a lot like a believer can live after the flesh. The word in the greek for flesh here is sarx of which we see the word carnal (Sarkikos) so again we see believers living in the flesh. Verse 13 if we through the power of the Spirit mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body we will live. Again Paul is addressing believers who live in the sarx (flesh) therefor being Carnal (Sarkikos).
Scripture is quite clear, two apostles both show that true believers can revert back to living in the flesh. They don't live sinless lives as you and ICON want to say, they don't live perfect lives, they live in sin and are saved. We all sin and come short of God's glory. Many of us as Christians never revert fully back into sin, as you seem to think but scripture is very clear we can revert back and vex our souls as we walk in sin.
ICON says "Mortification of remaining sin and corruption...yes that must happen!!" but Paul says if now we need to see the condition of the word if here:
1st Class = Positive - True
2nd Class = Negative - False
3rd Class = Neutral - Maybe
4th Class = Wish List
So Paul is using it in the Third class maybe we will mortify the deeds of the flesh but maybe we won't too. The term if must be looked at in the class it is used. Here we see Paul saying maybe we through the power of the Spirit mortify the deeds of the flesh, then we shall live operating in the Power of the Spirit.
John in 1 st John 1:9 uses the same class of if, maybe we will confess our sins, it says if we confess our sins, again it is we who must do this.
John also reiterates that a believer can walk in sin notice 1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
Again Maybe some will say I have fellowship with Christ but the are walking in sin they lie and are not doing the truth, again the key word here is "we" John is speaking to believers.
Then he completes it with these verses:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
It is filled with the 3 rd class condition of "IF". Througout scripture the Apostles make it clear a believer can walk in darkness, walk in sin and not confess it and still be saved a believer can be in the sarx (flesh) be a Sarkikos (carnal) person and yet still be saved.
You remind me of how satan does things. He accuses people of doing and saying things they do not say or do. I have never said anyone has to be sinless to be a Christian.
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freeatlast
New Member
preacher4truth
Active Member
:thumbsup:
And the people among DHK aren't "his" in the first place. They're the Lord's, not "his."
Is he responsible for them? Yep. Are they "his"? Absolutely not.
Also, to lay a charge on Washer that his messages are not sent by God or are false? Let the Lord judge that indictment on DHK. This is a premature and foolish charge.
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freeatlast
New Member
Yes I agree. When I hear some leader or Pastor refer to a church as "MY CHURCH or MY PEOPLE," I know they are in serious trouble. Not trying to be smart here. Sometimes we just need to wake up and see what we are really doing.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Yep. :thumbsup:
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:20-21)
"Timothy's Church" was the one at Ephesus. He was responsible for feeding them the precious Word of God. He was their shepherd. He was to avoid the profane and vain babblings which some professing Christians have preached and in doing so have erred from the faith.
He was not to bring "into his pulpit" those who would preach any false doctrine no matter if it stirred them up or not. Remember, the church at Ephesus was "his church," and the people were "his people," for the Lord had put him in charge, and some day he would give account for them.
When on this board there are some that deny that Christ did not ascend physically into heaven; deny the Second Coming of Christ; deny the resurrection body; assert that all future prophecies have been fulfilled, etc., would I allow such a one to preach in my church? Never! IMO, that is false doctrine.
But so is Lordship Salvation, the doctrine of "Carnal Christians," so to speak; and many of the other off-the-wall doctrines of Paul Washer. Let me ask you: Would you have a good old dyed-in-the-wool Baptist like Peter Ruckman preach in your church? Why not?
You don't agree with the doctrine, correct?
Likewise. I don't agree with the doctrine.
How can two walk together unless they be agreed.
There is nothing premature and nothing foolish. It is the Lord that has put me in charge of my flock; not you. So take your fingers back and point them at yourself instead.
freeatlast
New Member
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. (Acts 20:29-31)
According to you both Paul and the Ephesian Church were in serious trouble.
But you don't have that problem because you just allow anyone to teach you.
beameup
Member
I believe that Ruckman would say that we are in the Laodicean Church Age.
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves -- Self-Directed, Ego-Directed, ie: "Carnal"
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof -- Not Spirit-Directed, ie: not Spiritual
2 Tim 3:1,2a,5a
Timothy's Church a half-century later... Rev. 2
thou hast left thy first love
The Rapture is not far away...
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves -- Self-Directed, Ego-Directed, ie: "Carnal"
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof -- Not Spirit-Directed, ie: not Spiritual
2 Tim 3:1,2a,5a
Timothy's Church a half-century later... Rev. 2
thou hast left thy first love
The Rapture is not far away...
Revmac,
Why are you saying I said this...sinless perfection...when what i said was this:?????
Did you mis-read my post?
Why are you saying I said this...sinless perfection...when what i said was this:?????
Did you mis-read my post?
Do you have a web-site where we can hear your preaching?
For now ...I might prefer to listen to Washer ,macarthur, and others...they are proven men used of God.:thumbs::thumbs:
I do not agree with JohnM on his endtime view....but both these men are very solid on Jesus as Lord!
I know those with antinomian tendencies recoil from these truths these men preach.
preacher4truth
Active Member
preacher4truth
Active Member
Yes. I would like to hear him myself. Yes, a seeming antinomian theology does recoil at this, you are correct. The preaching of the above (Washer &c) tends to dismantle the overly-simplistic superficial and cursory theologies out there in the world.
Not certain, but I'd say DHK is of the fundy variety. Anyhow, he reminds me of that.
freeatlast
New Member
I am not sure what you are refering to but if you have paterned a church after the Ephesian church then it is in trouble.
Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
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I sense some veiled personal attacks. Stay away from them.
I am simply saying this: In every NT book every writer has warned against those who would bring false doctrine or admit false teachers into their presence. We are warned very strongly about this. As Shepherds over the flock we have a responsibility before God to feed and protect the sheep. If you do not agree with what I have just said, you disagree with most of the NT.
If you follow closely the theology of the some of the ones I have mentioned their theology ends in antinomianism.
You obviously haven't read Acts 20:14-31 very carefully. Local churches are entrusted to pastors. They are the undershepherds and someday will give account to the Great Shepherd for those given to their trust.