The Christians there are not the issue. The state terrorism is the issue
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Are those who condone the mass murders of Israel a reproach to the cause of Christ?
- Thread starter dad2
- Start date
- Status
No the supposed number and actions of that day are questionable. Most of the hostages (taken to try and free unjustly arrested Palestinians, many without even any charges I hear) were killed by Israel! Did you think the carpet bombing somehow missed hostages? There is a long history of theft of land and mistreating and killing etc. So it never started in Oct. That was the excuse.
Do not call a genocidal slaughter and mass murder a war.
? They fire millions of people into the US. The US response? But that is no comparison to the terrorism inflicted on Gaza and now Lebanon. The US is a direct partner in crime here as well. So it is US bombs fired on civilians in Palestine!
Your numbers are based on what? I googled a list of the Israeli hostages and most were old, and the younger ones were military! Why are you saying babies and children?
How could a believer condone the mass murders going on?
If the US attacked populations in Mexico, we would have a comparison. Since the US is a partner in these crimes, I am not sure why you are trying to use them as some example here?
It is dishonest to deny it.
No actions of children and women and civilians justified anything. Calling the genocide war is dishonest. Now if Turkey and Iran and others come down to war, you can call that war! Starving and torturing and depriving and mass murdering civilians, not so much.
It was not war when Hitler killed millions of civilians any more than it is war when Israel does so. It is terrorism and mass murder.
Civilians get killed in car crashes and boating accidents as well. That does not make the state terrorism and mass murder of children a boating accident, car crash, or a war.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
According to who? Hamas?
Did Hamas go into Israel and….
1. Kill more than 1300 Jews?
2. Brutally rape, torture and murder young women?
3. Behead Jews including infants and children?
4. Take hostages?
Let’s be clear, the people in Palestine territory overwhelmingly voted for Hamas leadership. With every successful terrorist attack, they flood into the streets by the hundreds of thousands to celebrate the deaths of innocents.
They teach their children that Jews and Christians are pigs and dogs with textbooks paid for by US tax dollars.
They do not want peace. They sought war. Israel is responding with overwhelming force which is the only way war should be waged and will save lives in the end.
Just as Truman realized he could save hundreds of thousand of allied troops by dropping the bomb, Israel is using overwhelming force.
It’s ugly. That is why we say war is hell.
peace to you
As a Christian I prefer to use biblical usages for things.
This means that the Palestinians committed mass murder when they killed 1,200 civilians. BUT Israel's response would not be murder (as in a violation of "thou shalt not kill").
I am not sure how you got the idea that Israel retaliating against the Palestinian mass murder of its civilians by going to war against those who committed that mass murder is not war.
Do you not believe it was a crime for the Palestinians to enter Israel (a sovereign nation) and murder 1,200 civilians (many women, children), kidnap 130?
Israel had the responsibility to do all in its power to keep this from happening again. They are justified in the war because they were the ones attacked, they were the victims of mass murder (not war).
The Palestinian civilians (and the Lebanese civilians) are victims as well, but they are victims of war brought on by the mass murder of their nations against Israel (or the support, sheltering of the mass murderers).
I use the US as an example because I am a US citizen. The US is not engaged in.crimes against Mexico. If Mexico sent people over to murder 1,200 civilians and kidnapped 130 then the US would be justified in waging war against Mexico.
Israel's response has been measured. In reality a response should be disproportional. It should be designed to reach a focused goal. Here it should be to prevent mass murder against Israel from happening again.
As the Palestinians gave historically murdered Israel's civilians, it would be justified for Israel to seek the complete destruction of those people and those who supported the mass murder.
That is war. That is the difference between war and trying to police nations through force.
Your idea that Israel should permit the mass murder of its children is wrong. No nation should.
Had Israel entered Gaza and murdered civilians on Oct 7 instead of Palestine being the murderers then the neighboring nations would be justified to wage war against Israel.
But the fact is Palestinian entered Israel and committed mass murder. Israel is waging war as a result of that crime. Killing in war is not murder (not a violation of "thou shalt not kill", even if the result is civilians deaths (to include children).
I'm not defending Israel going to war. Israel is justified in making war because the Palestinians committed mass murder against Israel. I'm simply stating facts, facts I understand do not fit into your narrative but facts nonetheless.
The depends who we ask. For example, some might claim that say, about 1200 were killed, mostly military related, and the rapes were made up for the most part etc. There was an attack, yes. The people involved should be brought to justice, yes. Surrounding cities teeming with people should not be wiped out and relocated/shuffled around/deprived,starved etc etc as some supposed 'defense'. Period.
None of our business who people vote for. Do you think if there was a vote today, a friend of Netanyaho would win there!? No. People vote for who they think is somewhat on their side.
What you call a terrorist attack, they might call something else. If Israel kills 20 children and says they were little terrorists, the people there might call them something else.
A Christian area was just attacked a few days ago, killing many. I don't recall that happening before by the hands of Palestinians? I also do not think that mass murder should be performed on people who teach things we do not like. Sorry.
Some might say a prison riot was caused by people who do not want peace. Others may say it was caused by desperation and an attempt to be treated better. Are you suggesting the mass murdering Israelis want peace?
That is a crock. The way war 'should' be fought is not to collectively punish a population, mass murder children, and destroy their whole infrastructure and country. Since they had no military per say, and no airfields, depots etc etc, Israel simply bombed ambulances and schools and refugee centres, and hospitals etc.
It is true that the US is part of the operations and supplies the weapons. So this would be another crime for them as well. Did you think that made a mass killing spree OK?
The lie that God somehow gave unbelieving Israel that land and they have some special right to it is a large part of the problem. He will not restore them (and only the believers who accept Jesus) to the land till after they get saved in the end. Today they have stolen it. Yes, He knew they would be there. No, they have no more right (to say the least) than anyone else there to the land (from God)
You lack the spiritual discernment and the spiritual appreciation of the scriptures necessary to understand the scriptures. Your type are a dime a dozen. We could quote scripture all day long debunking your snowflake hate-based narrative, but you will not listen. Go fellowship with your local Imam.
The issue was never whether Israel hurt Hamas. The issue is hurting children and depriving water and destroying Gaza (and now some of Lebanon) as a livable place etc. Pretending that is hurting Hamas is dishonest.
I'll never understand as long as I live why people who don't care for Israel believe that on October 7th a year ago that they just made this crap up and that the horrors reported and many proved were just bunk.
What is it about Israel that makes you believe these things didn't happen or happened on such a low degree that we should just poof it all off and that Israel should just crawl whining into a cave somewhere.
How many killings of civilians would it take for you to be outraged?
How many rapes would it take for you to be outraged?
How many beheaded babies would it take for you to be outraged?
How many American hostages, abused and murdered, would it take for you to be outraged?
I'm just curious. By the way, you aren't the only person on the Baptist Board who doesn't care for Israel and Jews and I am putting that mildly when I say "doesn't care for".
I just don't get it.
Yet you post none and simply pretend you have some superior understanding. Since the thread is about the mass murder of Children and civilians and how Christians ought not to be seen condoning this, I guess that is exactly what you do?
So not agreeing with a killing spree is now hate according to you. I will take your reply as saying that you wholeheartedly agree with mass murder of children and people as long as it is by Israel. You also pretend to have God and Scripture on your side which is a complete deceit. You do not. If you tried to use scripture here for your justification of the wicked you would be quickly exposed. Ho hum
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Victims of a conflict that Hamas started when they invaded Israel and killed 1200 innocent concert goers.
There would not be any deaths in Gaza if the terrorist group Hamas had not started this conflict.
Hamas has all their blood on their hands as they were the ones that started this conflict. If Hamas is so innocent then all they have to do is lay down their arms and the conflict would end.
That is a really dumb comment. Those that are attacking Israel are terrorists and nothing less.
Statements form Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran.
Since they claim they are so concerned about all those in Gaza that are suffering then they should show just how righteous they are and surrender to end the conflict. Hamas made the mistake of thinking that Israel would not attack them in Gaza.
The only genocide that would come out of that region would be if Hamas, Hezbollah & Iran got their way and wiped out Israel and every Jew was killed.
You are nothing but an Hamas propagandist.
There was, as I said an attack on Israel. Not made up. Some claim that Israel killed many of the people whose deaths all were atrributed to Hamas though. The so called rapes and beheadings also were called into question by many as well. But the issue is not what some killers from Gaza did or did not do! The issue is the wiping out of Gaza and mass killing of people by Israel. Go after the actual criminals and leave the innocents alone.
Their constant lies for one thing. The very fact that they are mass killing people for another. Why would we believe Hitler or Manson? I never said that Israel should crawl off to a cave. They should not kill innocent people by the trainload! Now if that means they cannot stay in the land that would be fine by me! If the cost of their vacation there is mass murder of children, well sorry, I do not support that. God only restores believing Jews and that will be when he returns! They cannot blame God for anything they do. If someone moves into an apartment building, and cannot get along with their neighbours, well, move out! Fit in or....Why would I support a new tenant killing half the people in a building so they could stay??
You do realize that innocent people by the hundreds have been arrested an imprisoned and raped by Israel?? Why pretend it is (only) the other way around??
From what I have heard that silly story was debunked. Careful what you claim here.
I hear most hostages who died was because of Israel, in bombing, etc. Try to treat your regurgitated propaganda as something other than a matter of fact.
Why not be honest? I don't get it. Who said we do not care for Israel? Caring for Israel does not mean cheerleading when they mass murder children! It means wishing they would get saved and believe and repent.
Says you. Others would say Israel started it by stealing homes and properties and oppression etc etc etc. If there was a Jewish prison camp riot in Nazi Germany would you blame the Jews for starting something?
No, if Hamas was being killed and arrested, you would have a point! Children are being mass murdered etc. You have no point.
No more that Israel mass murdering children. Obviously.
Then arrest them, and leave the civilians alone. While you are at it, check out what some officials from Israel are quoted as saying!
I take it you support the destruction of the living space and infrastructure, deprivation of water, food, medical help, and mass murder of people then. OK.
Why would they want them killed if they got along with their neighbours, and were a blessing to the area?
Calling those of us with the love of God in us that do not agree with mass murdering children, 'hamas propagandists' is not Christian, or true. It is a lie and vile. Do you claim to be a Christian?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
It also depends on who you believe.
How is a music festival “mostly military related”?
The reports of the brutal gang rapes, murder and beheadings are consistent with radical Islamic beliefs.
If engaged in “jihad” you can do anything for the cause. Since they consider Jews (actually all none Muslims) to be fair game for “anything”, their most depraved impulses run rampant.
Their goal is to shock and strike fear into all non Muslims. The also believe if someone is beheaded or burned alive they cannot get into heaven… thus the beheading and burning, even of infants.
War has always been waged on civilian populations as well as military targets. When you understand that Hamas has built its military infrastructure in hospitals, schools, Mosques, (with US humanitarian tax dollars) most would understand the difficulty of separating the targets.
I agree who they vote for is none of my business. However, I’m smart enough to understand who they vote for will have significant impact on who I support when war breaks out.
peace to you
I am understanding your beliefs more and more.
You think the dead babies were a "silly story" and that the rapes were "made up"?
Secretary of State Anthony Blinken was shown images of the bloody and dead children and babies. Some reporters were shown and made the decision not to display them on television.
No one is "cheerleading" Israel's war.
The entirety of the Middle East is on my prayer list and HAS been No one wants this to continue. I pray for protection and for salvation of Muslim and Jew alike and have for YEARS.
But YOU. Your beliefs are quite clear. And they are disturbing.
I do not follow this all that closely. From some commentators I have heard that the kibbutzes were near and that many military folks lived there. etc
That sounds like a slur. You do realize that bombs falling day and night take off many heads as well? But the mass murder of children in Palestine has nothing to do with beheadings!
Here is an example of a news source that disputes the baby beheading/rape claims.
"But the investigation by the I-Unit, which examined hours of footage from CCTV, dashcams, personal phones and headcams of killed Hamas fighters, has also found that many of the stories that came out in the days following the attack were false.
These include claims of atrocities such as the mass killing and beheading of babies as well as allegations of widespread and systematic rape – stories that were used repeatedly by politicians in Israel and the West to justify the ferocity of the subsequent bombardment of the Gaza Strip"
October 7: Forensic analysis shows Hamas abuses, many false Israeli claims
The civilians/babies/children murdered were not involved in 'jihad'. Strawman argument
The same can be said of any terrorist, they want to strike fear into us
More like 'thus more false claims'
Unless you can kill/arrest just the criminals. leave the babies and children and women and civilians alone. Period.
As if a vote mattered much in a prison camp.
Exactly the type of arrogant, hateful, and deceitful reply that I expected from an Anti-Zionist like you. Like I said, your kind are a dime a dozen.
It's not too late for you to join the ranks of the Gog-Magog Alliance of nations. Why don't you put your skin in the game and come destroy the Israel that you despise. Get off your keypad and come be a champion for your precious Islamic Supremacist "Palestinians".
Hamon-gog awaits the hordes of Anti-Zionists.
It isn't.
Dad2, how old are you?
I ask because I am only in my mid 50's and I can remember the PLO and the rise of Hamas. But all of the history (including fairly recent history) seems foreign to you. The land once belonged to Israel. Prime Minister Meir was a Ukrainian immigrant to Palestine. Palestine belonged to the Ottoman Empire until the end of WW1, and then was controlled by England.
Palestine has had the opportunity to be its own country (a two-state solution) since 1947. Israel supported this, however the Arabs rejected the plan (they did not want an all Palestine state).
The fact is Israel is responding to a mass murder committed by Palestinians under the government of Hamas with the support of Iran and Lebanon.
Their goal for decades has been to exist in peace. The initial goal of Hamas was create a Palestinian state along side Israel, however their current goal is the PLO goal - exterminate the Jews.
Israel actually won the right to the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and the entire Sanai Peninsula. They won this when they defeated Egypt, Jordan, and Seria in 1967.
They withdrew for peace. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005.
The problem is Israel's enemies will not stop until Israel ceases to exist. This is what "to the river and the sea" means.
I do understand why we, as Christians, give over lives lost on both sides. I do not understand why you side with the terrorists - the ones who actually committed mass murder.
If not wanting innocent people tortured, starved, have their homes destroyed and schools and hospitals bombed, and mass murdered, makes you 'anti zionist' then yes please! I'll join God on that one.
You seem confused. Why would Christian want to take up arms? Being against evil does not mean you want to be evil. Remember also that it was God that brought Babylon down to take Israel captive and destroy it! It is God that brings the allegiance you speak of down as well! It is also God that allows over 2/3 of Israel to be killed in the last days. It is Good that sets it up so that the forces of the battle of Armageddon come down! That brings to mind an interesting question. If God is against the mass murder and torture and starvation of children, why would Her NOT bring down some forces to stop Israel?
Russia claims to be Christian. Get off your keyboard and go join your Anti-Zionist brethren in Russia. Surely, according to you, devouring Israel would be a worthy cause. YOU have judged Israel, now get off your behind and execute YOUR judgment. Go put your skin in the game.
I'm sure you will have the blessings of the Russian Orthodox Priests and the Islamic Supremacist Imams. Of a certainty, they shall come forth to their slaughter claiming to be doing God's bidding.
I'm perfectly content with the Sovereignty of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
The problem is Israel went to war to stop the mass murder of its citizens.
To say Israel should not have gone ti war is to say mass murder is fine as long as it is Jews being murdered.
With war there are civilian casualties, especially when your enemy is using civilians as human shields and placing it military infrastructure in civilian areas.
We know, for example, that Hamas was using schools and hospitals as military centers. We know rockets were being fired from civilian apartment buildings and being manufactured in those same buildings. We know hostages were being kept by Hamas in refugee camps.
I would have had a bit more sympathy for your comments had you begun by condemning Palestine for the mass murder of Israeli civilians.
I agree with you on this point.
- Status