Are Those Who Die in Infancy Saved?

[atpollard]

Are Those Who Die in Infancy Saved?

The Bible is silent, so I have no definitive answer. I cling to the character of God and trust that the God who liked the firstborn infants in Egypt and drown the babies in the days of Noah is capable of not saving infants if He so chooses and that God meant it when He said: “I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy”, so God is certainly able to save babies if He so chooses. Thus I trust that God will choose and His choice will be the best and the right choice. (Whatever that choice is.)

 

[Van]

All of this nonsense because I challenged your claim from the NASB that God does not judge those who believe.
SNIP

Yet another false statement, another effort at disinformation!

To repeat, God is all powerful and can make a rock into a sinner.
Babies have not yet developed the attributes of personhood, intellect, emotion and will, but they are still living individuals from conception, having a human spirit that God made "a sinner!"
I claim as the Bible does a baby from conception is condemned.
Next we get a show of ignorance as to what happened to those who obtained approval through faith before Christ died on the cross. They were placed in Abraham's bosom until Christ to lead them captive into His kingdom.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I found the OT largely (but not 100%) silent on the afterlife. Within this broader general context, David was saying nothing more profound than “while his son was alive but dying, David wept to God because God could yet save the life of his baby. Now that the baby is dead, the baby will not rise from the grave (so there is no need to plead to God any longer), but David will with certainty one day also join his baby in the grave.”

Like most of the OT, David was saying nothing about the afterlife but was focused on this life ending in death (the grave).

Why were people in the Old Testament warned about the evils of contacting the dead if they did not believe in something after death?

They didn't call it heaven and hell, but the understanding was there.

We will just have to disagree here.

 

[37818]

Saved from what?

The wages of sin.

Noting also MLV, Romans 9:11, ". . . for* the children were not yet born, nor had practiced anything good or evil, in-order-that the purpose of God according-to his choice might abide, not from works, but from the one who is calling. . . ."

 

[Alan Gross]

So how is one to obey this requirement? ". . . Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ."

Gill, from the what it is worth department, with

my comments in blue.

"like" or "as" are used in similes to show a comparison,
not a direct similarity.

"Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God;
the Gospel, and the mysteries of it:

"as a little child;
laying aside all pride and prejudice,
attending thereunto with humility and meekness:
(because they are saved and showing they are saved)

"he shall not enter therein;
he shall attain to no true spiritual knowledge of the Gospel;
nor should he be admitted into a Gospel church state,
and to the ordinances of it.

Mark 10:15 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary

Jesus said nothing about "Believe like a child." How about believe like an infant? An infant is without a doubt a little child.

Again, "as" is the comparison. "Be converted"
comes from the New Birth.

Matthew 18:3
"And said, Verily I say unto you,
Except ye be converted, and become as little children,
ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

"except ye be converted or turned; from that gross notion of a temporal kingdom, (that they had as lost) and of enjoying great grandeur, and outward felicity in this world; and from all your vain views of honor, wealth, and riches,

"and become as little children: the Arabic renders it, "as this child"; that is, unless ye learn (even after saved) to entertain an humble, and modest opinion of yourselves, are not envious at one another, and drop all contentions about primacy and pre-eminence, and all your ambitious views of one being greater than another, in a vainly expected temporal kingdom; things which are not to be found in little children, though not free from sin in other respects,

"ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven: ye shall be so far from being one greater than another in it, that you shall not enter into it at all; meaning his visible, spiritual kingdom, which should take place, and appear after his resurrection, upon his ascension to heaven, and pouring forth of the Spirit: and it is to be observed, that the apostles carried these carnal views, contentions, and sentiments, till that time, and then were turned from them, and dropped them; for, upon the extraordinary effusion of the Holy Spirit, they were cleared of these worldly principles, and understood the spiritual nature of Christ's kingdom; which they then entered into, and took their place in, and filled it up with great success, without envying one another; having received the same commission from their Lord, and Master: so that these words are a sort of prophecy of what should be, as well as designed as a rebuke to them for their present ambition and contentions.

Matthew 18:3 Commentaries: and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.


Matthew 19:14
"But Jesus said, Suffer little children,
and forbid them not, to come unto me:
for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

"But Jesus said, suffer little children.... This he said to show his humility, that he was not above taking notice of any; and to teach his disciples to regard the weakest believers, and such as were but children in knowledge; and to inform them what all ought to be, who expect the kingdom of heaven; for it follows;

"and forbid them not to come unto me, now, or at any other time;

"for of such is the kingdom of heaven; that is, as the Syriac renders it, "who are as these" or as the Persic version, rather paraphrasing than translating, renders it, "who have been humble as these little children":

"and it is as if our Lord should say, do not drive away these children from my person and presence; they are lively emblems of the proper subjects of a Gospel church state,

It is as if Jesus is saying: "by these" (as emblems or examples, by comparison) "I may instruct and point out to you, what converted persons should be, who have a place in my church below, (as saved) and expect to enter into my kingdom and glory above; that they are, or ought to be, like such children, harmless and inoffensive; free from rancour and malice, meek, modest, and humble; without pride, self-conceit, and ambitious views, and desires of grandeur and superiority."

"... It is not denied that little children, whether born of believers or unbelievers, which matters not, may be chosen of God, redeemed by the blood of Christ, and have the passive work of the Spirit on their souls, and so enter into heaven; but this is not the sense of this text.

"It was indeed a controversy among the Jews, whether the little children of the wicked of Israel, "go into the world to come":

"some affirmed, and others denied;

"but all agreed, that the little children of the wicked of the nations of the world, do not.

"They dispute about the time of entrance of a child into the world to come; some say, as soon as it is born, according to Psalm 22:31

"others, as soon as it can speak, or count, according to Psalm 22:30

"others as soon as it is sown, as the gloss says, as soon as the seed is received in its mother's womb, though it becomes an abortion; according to the same words, "a seed shall serve thee":

"others, as soon as he is circumcised, according to Psalm 88:15

"others, as soon as he can say "Amen", according (z) to Isaiah 26:2

All weak, frivolous, and impertinent."

Matthew 19:14 Commentaries: But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."


Luke 18:17
"Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."

"Verily I say unto you,...., Christ takes an occasion from hence to teach his disciples humility, and guard them against pride and vanity:

"whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God; the King Messiah, the doctrines of the Gospel, and the ordinances of it, even the whole Gospel dispensation;

"as a little child; without prejudice, pride, ambition, and vanity, with meekness, and humility:

"shall in no wise enter therein;
a very unfit and improper person to be a professor (ONLY) of the Gospel;

"or to be admitted to Gospel ordinances:
(they haven't "brought forth fruit" indicating they were saved)

"or be a member of a Gospel church;
(only believers, with believer's baptism
to make up a regenerated church membership)

"or be reckoned a subject of the Messiah's kingdom,
(having not shown they had been born into the Family of God,
by the New Birth, Spiritually)

"which is of a spiritual nature;

"and as he has not a meetness (fitness) for,
and a right unto the kingdom of glory,
he (the lost) shall never see it, and enjoy it."

Luke 18:17 Commentaries: "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."

 

[37818]

like" or "as" are used in similes to show a comparison,
not a direct similarity.

So, Matthew 7:29, ". . . For He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.. . . ."

 

[taisto]

A person must possess three things to be a sinner and the same three things to be saved. They are intellect, reason, and will. One cannot become a sinner if he does not possess these things.

Please tell me, in the Bible, where this is stated.
If I take you literally and I take God literally:
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord: then anyone without just one of these three things can never die because they cannot become a sinner.
Additionally, according to your statement, one can state that salvation comes by intellect, reason, and will. Thus, by your claim, grace is not necessary.

 

[Piper]

I would encourage you to read the words as if they are true and makes sense.

In 1 Cor 15:22 the text says all men in the family of Adam die. It does not say what you make it say, which is, in Adam all are dead.

The verse just before this says the following;

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Just for fun, if you were not reading these verses with a deep abiding bias, what would you think would be the death that is relative to this context? I already know what you are trying to prove, and that is that this passage is speaking of babies who are born into the family headed by Adam and not full grown adults who die eventually because in Adam they do not have eternal life and certainly no power in them to resist sin. In your next verses it will be laid out clearly that it is not being born that causes them to die, but being in Adam's image which all men receive by being born in his image.

Now, Jesus Christ was not born in the image of Adam, he was born in the image of his Father, God. He did have in him from birth the power to resist sin, and he never sinned. Though the body of our Lord Jesus was not mature enough to resist sin as he grew, the Spirit of God who dwelt in him was as mature the day he was born as the day he willingly died on the cross for all those born in Adam, all of whom eventually willingly bowed to the sovereign of this world, sin.

Being in the image of Adam just means that being in the image of God is distinguished by the fact that God indwells the body of those who are in his image while those in the image of Adam are absent the Spirit. It is not a sin to be this way, it is how they are born. Now, the body of Jesus and the soul of Jesus came through his natural birth but the Spirit of God came from the Father, God. This is what it means to be in the image of God, three in one and one in three. Jesus Christ is the only man who has ever been in the image of God to this point in time, his resurrection, except Adam before the fall. The difference between the two is that Adam did not exist before but was created this way and Jesus, was from everlasting, a Spirit (God is a Spirit Jn 6:63) and was physically born as both a man, being God. I am not guessing about this, it is what the scriptures teach. Now, all them who are born again into the family of God, with Jesus as the head of the family, are in the image of God. God is their Father and they are all "sons" of God, viewed by God the Father as completely righteous, because they are "in Christ" and he no longer sees us "in Adam."

Now, you are going to need to see some verses;
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life (when he believes): and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Ro 5:17 For if by one man’s offence (ADAM) death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many (not babies but them who sinned) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (who receive the Spirit) be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The law made men more notable sinners.

Now here is the Sovereignty of sin in Adam's race;

Ro 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

He proves this by the fact that all from Adam to Moses died without the law, and all from Moses until Christ came died with the law, but since Christ died and rose again, he imputes his own righteousness to them who will receive it and when they die they will be like him and rise from the dead. He calls this time frame "the grace of God." It is not just grace but "the abundance of grace." It is described thusly;
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men (not babies) to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

There is much more wonderful truths in these passages. I pray you do not approach these plain words with a bias that will darken your mind but allow the words to mean what they say.

I am not biased. I am simply reading the texts as they are written. That you call my mind darkened is a pretty heavey accusation. I fear you are pretty arrogant and rude.

 

[Alan Gross]

So, Matthew 7:29, ". . . For He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.. . . ."

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

"like" or "as" are used in similes to show a comparison,

As is being used...as a simile...

"As is mainly used as a conjunction and a preposition, but it can also be used as an adverb. As an adverb, it is used in comparisons to show adverbial information of degree."

Except ye be converted, and become as little children,

To be converted is the way of salvation.

To be a little child is not a way or the way of salvation.

receive the kingdom of God as a little child

Not "you receive the Kingdom because you are a little child".

 

[atpollard]

Why were people in the Old Testament warned about the evils of contacting the dead if they did not believe in something after death?

They didn't call it heaven and hell, but the understanding was there.

We will just have to disagree here.

That place is …
[Strong’s] שְׁאוֹל shᵉʼôwl, sheh-ole'; or שְׁאֹל shᵉʼôl; from H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:—grave, hell, pit.

[Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon]
1. the underworld, תַּחְתִּית שׁ׳ Deuteronomy 32:22, מִתַּחַת Isaiah 14:9; מִ֑טָּה מִשּׁ׳ Proverbs 15:24; || מָוֶת Proverbs 5:5; Proverbs 7:27; Songs 8:6; Psalm 89:49; whither men descend at death, Genesis 37:35 (E), Genesis 42:38; Genesis 44:29, 31 (J), 1 Samuel 2:6; 1 Kings 2:6, 9; Job 7:9; Job 21:13; Isaiah 14:11, 15; Psalm 88:4, and Korah and associates go down alive by י׳'s judgment, Numbers 16:30, 33 (J), compare Psalm 55:16; under mountains and sea Job 26:6 (compare Job 26:5), בֶּטֶן שׁ׳ Jonah 2:3 (compare Jonah 2:7); with bars Job 17:16 (si vera lectio: see Du); שׁ׳ פִּי Psalm 141:7; שַׁעֲרֵי שׁ׳Isaiah 38:10; personified Isaiah 28:15, 18 (|| מות). as insatiable monster Isaiah 5:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Proverbs 1:12; Proverbs 27:20; Proverbs 30:16; as said (figurative) to have snares, חֶבְלֵי שׁ׳ Psalm 18:6 = 2 Samuel 22:6 compare מְצָרֵי שׁ׳ Psalm 116:3; opposed to (height of) שָׁמַיִם Amos 9:2; Job 11:8; Psalm 139:8 + (opposed to לְמָ֑עְלָה) Isaiah 7:11 (see above); dark, gloomy, without return Job 17:13 (compare Job 17:16; Job 7:9; Job 10:21; Job 16:22; all being alike Job 3:17-19; Job 21:23-26); without work or knowledge or wisdom according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10 (compare Job 14:21, and see רְפָאִים below רפה; yet compare Isaiah 14:9f.).
2. condition of righteous and wicked distinguished in שׁ׳ (later than 1 Samuel 28, especially in Wisdom Literature):
a. wicked יָשׁוּבוּ לִשְׁא֑וֺלָה Psalm 9:18, יִדְּמוּ לִשׁ׳ Psalm 31:18; death is their shepherd, without power and honour they waste away Psalm 49:15 (twice in verse); שׁ׳ consumes them as drought water Job 24:19; righteous dread it because no praise or presence of God there (as in temple) Psalm 6:6 (compare Psalm 88:5), Isaiah 38:18; deliverance from it a blessing Psalm 30:4; Psalm 86:13; Proverbs 23:14. In Ezek. שׁ׳ is land below, place of reproach, abode of uncircumcised Ezekiel 31:15, 16, 17; Ezekiel 32:21, 27
b. righteous shall not be abandoned, לשׁ׳ Ezekiel 16:10 (|| שַׁחַת which see; opposed to אִרַח חַיִּים etc., Ezekiel 16:11, compare Ezekiel 17:15), is ransomed from שׁ׳ Ezek 49:16 (compare Ezek 73:23; Ezek 73:25; Isaiah 57:1, 2); compare Job's expectation and desire Job 14:13; Job 17:13 (compare Job 10:21; Job 19:25f.).
3. later distinction of places in שׁ׳ :
a. depths of שׁ׳ for sensualist Proverbs 9:18.
b. וַאֲבַדּוֺן שׁ׳ Proverbs 25:11, see אֲבַדּוֺן. [שַׁחַת and בּוֺר, which see, when || שׁ׳, are usually in bad sense (Psalm 88:4); probably = pit in שׁ׳, > שׁ׳ itself as pit; words at least prepare for local distinctions of post-Biblical Judaism and NT.]
4. שׁ׳ figurative of extreme degradation in sin Isaiah 57:9; as place of exile for Israel Hosea 13:14 (twice in verse) (compare Isaiah 26:19).


From the verses that actually use the word (more than the allowable character length to post), King David was not expecting his son to be with God in Heaven as we know it and David to join his son with God in heaven (as some claim for 2 Samuel 12:23 as support for “all babies go to heaven”).


[2Sa 12:22-23 KJV] 22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

 

[Alan Gross]

[2Sa 12:22-23 KJV] 22 And he said, While the child was yet alive,

With the topic for discussion being, "alive", as in this life.

, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

Again, the life of the child is mentioned as "live" having to do with physical life.

But now he is dead

Then, "dead" is said vs physical life.

I shall go to him

There is a place after death. Wherever it is, the child is simply dead.

but he shall not return to me.

He will not return to me in this life, again, as opposed to where he was = dead.


So, is it so hard and contextually impossible(?) for the theme of "life" vs "death" in these sentences to carry though meaning "regarding this physical life or of a physical death"?

Rather than switching to the afterlife, or final destiny meanings having to do with Heaven or Hell, just because the text says, "I shall go to him".

David would "go to him" in death, my friends, the subject of the entire verse

 

[JD731]

The wages of sin.

Nothing also MLV, Romans 9:11, ". . . for* the children were not yet born, nor had practiced anything good or evil, in-order-that the purpose of God according-to his choice might abide, not from works, but from the one who is calling. . . ."

Choosing for what? To sin or not to sin? I think not. The metaphor is being advanced for the second birth. Israel was the people of God , and according to Exodus 4, was the firstborn son of God collectively. This birth in Egypt, the world, was a natural birth for this son, and he, like all who are born of the flesh, became a sinner. Now, since the manner of forgiving sin has been made manifest through Christ (The previous Chapter in Romans, chapter 8, is about nothing else but this) this son can be born again collectively, and the command, since Jesus was manifest to them, was to repent as a people, a nation, a son, as individual Jews. Yea, before the national and kingdom promises of God are fulfilled in this people as they become sons of God individually, they all, every one of them, must be born again Jn 3:7 Acts 2:38), which they were not in 58 AD when this Romans letter was written, although God had sent his chosen kingdom officers, the 12 apostles and the 70 elders, after the kingdom model of Moses, to announce it was time and they must repent and believe the gospel of Christ, be baptized and be saved. Therefore God was dealing with the few individuals of Israel who would believe, to fulfill his purpose for this age, (creating a bride for his son in the model of Adam and Eve) at this time, a remnant of believers in lieu of the collective whole because of the unbelief, and he called them the "remnant according to the election of grace." Even the two divisions of Israel, Jews and the ten tribes who were dwelling in Asia minor, called gentiles in Rom 9 in those days, advances the metaphor. Because they did not believe, God opened the door of faith to gentiles all over the world to come and fill his purpose, to fill his house (family). Because there were such a few Jews and many gentiles, this body would, sooner than later, take on a distinctly gentile character.

If God is consistent in everything, he is even more consistent in the second man, who is birthed in a family, being the metaphor for the second birth, and the one whom God uses.

All Israel will one day be saved in the next age, after he has secured his bride after the marriage customs and manner of the Jews, but it will be after he has killed all the rebels of Israel in the great tribulation, as well as all gentile rebels who will not be saved and he tells us in the OT prophets there will be few left to save. But saved they will be, every one of them, and he will come from the Father's house with his betrothed and inaugurate his kingdom at the marriage supper of the Lamb. At that time all who are bidden will come to his supper willingly and joyfully.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in (the purpose of God in this age completed). 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

No one on this forum will believe this. This is a dark place.

Jacob was the third patriarch and it was through him the family was birthed after Isaac, the second born son of Abraham, had been sacrificed on Mt Moriah in a figure. Jacob, the second son of Isaac, represents the Holy Spirit in type.

Ye must be born again. Being religious will not do. God tells us all, you and me, in 2 cor 13:5, to examine ourselves whether we be in the faith, lest we be reprobates.

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

The second sentence is followed by a question mark. If he is in us he will bear witness to his word, which he says is truth. Praise the wonderful Lord Jesus Christ for what he has done for us, and God the Father, who has given us salvation from our sins and has given us great hope of being with him where he is forever. Amen.

 

[JD731]

"There is much more wonderful truths in these passages. I pray you do not approach these plain words with a bias that will darken your mind but allow the words to mean what they say."

I am not biased. I am simply reading the texts as they are written. That you call my mind darkened is a pretty heavey accusation. I fear you are pretty arrogant and rude.

You are not doing very well in the realm of understanding and correctly processing what you read. The evidence is in.

However I am not your enemy for telling you the truth.

 

[JD731]

Please tell me, in the Bible, where this is stated.
If I take you literally and I take God literally:
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord: then anyone without just one of these three things can never die because they cannot become a sinner.
Additionally, according to your statement, one can state that salvation comes by intellect, reason, and will. Thus, by your claim, grace is not necessary.

This is true. We have other physical life forms on the earth besides mankind. No dog, for instance, has ever been charged with breaking one of the ten commandments although there have been dogs that have killed other dogs and even humans. They have intellect to some degree and certainly a will, but they do not have knowledge of God and the difference between good and evil, right and wrong. They cannot reason. They cannot be charged with sin.

This is the reason for animal sacrifice to portray Jesus Christ and his shed blood in the OT. God wanted to show that his plan of salvation was to have a fit sinless sacrifice, a substitute of the innocent for the guilty. He wanted to prefigure the shedding of blood of the sinless for the sinful and demonstrate in these ceremonies that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. There is no excuse for us missing this. We have a complete Bible now with the record of eye witnesses who ministered with Jesus and knew he had never sinned in their presence and that he was the actual sacrifice of the innocent and sinless that all these animals prefigured. We have two thousand years of history that shows men have put their trust in him, even for some, unto death. They have reasoned that he will raise them from the dead.

There are some religions represented here that do not believe men have intellect, reason, and will. This is a false religion. It is not just an error. It makes a man more like a dog than the crown of God's creation.

 

[taisto]

This is true. We have other physical life forms on the earth besides mankind. No dog, for instance, has ever been charged with breaking one of the ten commandments although there have been dogs that have killed other dogs and even humans. They have intellect to some degree and certainly a will, but they do not have knowledge of God and the difference between good and evil, right and wrong. They cannot reason. They cannot be charged with sin.

This is the reason for animal sacrifice to portray Jesus Christ and his shed blood in the OT. God wanted to show that his plan of salvation was to have a fit sinless sacrifice, a substitute of the innocent for the guilty. He wanted to prefigure the shedding of blood of the sinless for the sinful and demonstrate in these ceremonies that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. There is no excuse for us missing this. We have a complete Bible now with the record of eye witnesses who ministered with Jesus and knew he had never sinned in their presence and that he was the actual sacrifice of the innocent and sinless that all these animals prefigured. We have two thousand years of history that shows men have put their trust in him, even for some, unto death. They have reasoned that he will raise them from the dead.

There are some religions represented here that do not believe men have intellect, reason, and will. This is a false religion. It is not just an error. It makes a man more like a dog than the crown of God's creation.

You didn't answer my question.
You wrote:
A person must possess three things to be a sinner and the same three things to be saved. They are intellect, reason, and will. One cannot become a sinner if he does not possess these things.

My question: Where, in the Bible does God tell humans that they must have these three things in order to be saved. I would like to know your scripture for such a comment.

 

[JD731]

You didn't answer my question.
You wrote:
A person must possess three things to be a sinner and the same three things to be saved. They are intellect, reason, and will. One cannot become a sinner if he does not possess these things.

My question: Where, in the Bible does God tell humans that they must have these three things in order to be saved. I would like to know your scripture for such a comment.

I quoted it and you must have missed it. Here it is again;

Ge 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

God did not say the tree was not good for food. He did not say it was not pleasant to the eyes. The next thing is human reasoning and came from the Serpent and not God. That the tree was to be desired to make one wise. The next thing she did was totally of her own doing. No one made her do it. She took the fruit and ate it.

I likened this to what God gave us in James i concerning the progression of our thinking into and action of sin which brings death, as it did at the first sin.

.Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The first two things led up to the real problem but she did not die until she ate the fruit of the tree. That was the breaking of the commandment. That was what God said not to do.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Apply the above to Eve.

This is why all men sin.

My first comment was that men must have these three things in order to sin. Soak this in a while and I will come back and show you the scriptures saying one must have the same three things to be saved.

 

[taisto]

I quoted it and you must have missed it. Here it is again;

Ge 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

God did not say the tree was not good for food. He did not say it was not pleasant to the eyes. The next thing is human reasoning and came from the Serpent and not God. That the tree was to be desired to make one wise. The next thing she did was totally of her own doing. No one made her do it. She took the fruit and ate it.

I likened this to what God gave us in James i concerning the progression of our thinking into and action of sin which brings death, as it did at the first sin.

.Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The first two things led up to the real problem but she did not die until she ate the fruit of the tree. That was the breaking of the commandment. That was what God said not to do.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Apply the above to Eve.

This is why all men sin.

My first comment was that men must have these three things in order to sin. Soak this in a while and I will come back and show you the scriptures saying one must have the same three things to be saved.

Just note that none of those verses say what you said.

You wrote:
"A person must possess three things to be a sinner and the same three things to be saved. They are intellect, reason, and will. One cannot become a sinner if he does not possess these things."

You have failed to support your contention.

By your comments no children should ever die until some point in their lives where they use reason, intellect, and will to rebel against God.
By your comments God can save no one who doesn't have an intellect, reasoning, and a self will.

JD, you have a graceless gospel. No one should ever give any heed to you and what you say. It is clearly not what God teaches in His Word.

I encourage you to go to the scriptures and find grace.

 

[JD731]

Just note that none of those verses say what you said.

You wrote:
"A person must possess three things to be a sinner and the same three things to be saved. They are intellect, reason, and will. One cannot become a sinner if he does not possess these things."

You have failed to support your contention.

By your comments no children should ever die until some point in their lives where they use reason, intellect, and will to rebel against God.
By your comments God can save no one who doesn't have an intellect, reasoning, and a self will.

JD, you have a graceless gospel. No one should ever give any heed to you and what you say. It is clearly not what God teaches in His Word.

I encourage you to go to the scriptures and find grace.

Well, okay………