Are we beating a dead horse?

[webdog]

It involves words like whole world, all, whosoever will, all ye ends of the earth, except ye believe etc and either using the definitions of these words for coming up with different definitions.

I agree, the truth has been told many many times on BB for all who will receive it.

I just heard a sermon from Alistair Begg of Parkside Church, a local popular preacher say something that made me do a "huh"? When quoting John The Baptist, he said "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the worlds".
How is this clearly not adding to the Word of God? What "worlds" could he have been talking about? I love the guy, and listen to him every time I can, but this did not sit right in me.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Romans 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Ezekiel 3:18
When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood.

James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Acceppting a free gift, you do not praise the receiver, but the giver.

If you think the above Scriptures refer to a man's eternal status, I am sorry to say you have them wrong.
Either Jesus is the only Savior, and He came and did what He came to do, or Jesus AND men are co-Saviors, Jesus the Cross and His blood, and man the gospel and his preaching.

 

[psalms109:31]

Abide

The branch that does not abide in the vine is good for nothing but the fire.

Jesus works through us.

If a farmer kicked back and let God do all the work, He would have no harvast.

We are the hands and feet of God.

No one can believe without a preacher preaching to them. How preciouse is the feet that brings the good news.

Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

 

[psalms109:31]

Paul

Romans 11:13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

 

[skypair]

Your wording stacks the emotional deck with the implication of fatalism.

It boils down to this: Does God choose, or does God make salvation available and leave it up to man to choose?

Ha-ha! "Emotional deck??" Friend, is it fate or is it free will?? I vote for your latter construct -- as I'm sure God would.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

Romans 11:13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Calvinists also witness and hope that what they do will somehow be instrumental in the salvation of others. Who gets the credit? For it is God who works in us to will and to do according to His good purpose. Soli Deo Gloria.

 

[skypair]

Jdbuck,

It boils down to this, Jd -- Is salvation by fate or free will??

If there are no choices to make -- Calvin was right. It's all fate. It was all planned from eternity past and God didn't ask your opinoin, thank you very much!

If free will is right -- WE are responsible for our destiny, heaven or hell. And God does care what every man and woman chooses/believes.

Now "what then" - "what now?" First off, Calvinists must be dissuaded from unscriptural foolishness. There IS predestination but it is not to salvation -- it is to SANCTIFICATION (which distinction apparently alludes them).

Second, free will must help Calvinists find there way out of a dark deception -- "dragging them out of the fire hating even the garment [even though it be a saved one] soiled by the flesh." Jude 1:23

"What purpose does [division] serve?" Paul said in 1Cor 11:19 -- "For there must be also heresies [sects] among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." That is, yes. There are divisions over God's truth. They are there as part of God showing us what is true! We often call them "premises" -- not theology -- when they first appear. Calvinism was a "grand premise" made by a "new-born" Christian (only 2 years old in Christ when he first published his Insitutes. How idealistic and naive were YOU at that tender Christian age?)

We all have Bibles now -- we all can check, like Bereans, into Calvin's work. It was an early paradigm but like Lutheranism, didn't remove itself far enough away from Catholicism. It again thought to make a church-state (kingdom of God on earth) which is why they can't see national and religious Israel's future in prophecy. It again baptized infants and improperly put "phyical" Christ into the elements of the Eucharist. It again built up a class of Nicolaitans (rulers of the laity) and its own dogma (tenets to be believed without proof -- like TULIP).

If Calvinism is wrong, then many will come to the door of heaven and not open it because that decision is in God's hands (so they teach). Instead, they will try to "prove" their salvation in the only way a Calvinist knows how (quoting J, Montgomery Boice) -- "No one can know they are saved unless they live a holy life." (re: Commentary on 1Cor). Calvin simply turned salvation = works + faith of Catholicism into faith = salvation + works.

There are some interesting permutations that come from those equations:

Catholicism: salvation - faith = works which is all most of them really have. :cry:

Reform: faith - works = salvation or faith = works - salvation.

Faith = Salvation! Open that door, Mr. Calvin!!

If free will is correct, then we can offer salvation through Christ to anyone we meet!! And by their profession, we can know their spiritual status.

I'm gonna try to help Calvinists, many of whom say that Calvinism is the gospel, to become more effective Christians.

skypair

It bears saying again on this page.

Darryl -- nice article but 1) the lost must be reached (and only are) with the real gospel (1Cor 15:1-3), not with the gospel according to Calvin. And 2) God is not pleased to have us sit idley by waiting for Him to act. He has given us a commission and it is WE that must go! God's plan is about free will -- not fate!

skypair

 

[skypair]

Either Jesus is the only Savior, and He came and did what He came to do, or Jesus AND men are co-Saviors...

Sorry -- does not compute.

You're saying that because a man believes, that he saved himself?? You know, there's an element of truth in that. Because I believed, I put my flesh on His cross with Him -- I was dead and buried with Him -- I live a resurrected life, literally! I have a new "glorified body" -- "terrestrially" glorified, that is. I am the "image" of Christ in the world and so is EVERY BELIEVER!!

Have YOU been baptized into Christ??

skypair

 

[psalms109:31]

Calvinists also witness and hope that what they do will somehow be instrumental in the salvation of others. Who gets the credit? For it is God who works in us to will and to do according to His good purpose. Soli Deo Gloria.

Since our wages of our sin is death, believing in Jesus in what He has done for us brings glory to God alone.

If our wages for our sin was belief, then all glory to man, but it isn't it is death so all glory goes to God alone.

We are saved by grace through faith. God is just handing us our faith through His word, all we have to do is accept it.

Who glorifies Himself for accepting a free gift, we glorify the giver and the maker of it.

By accepted something we can't say look at what my hands have made.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Sorry -- does not compute.

You're saying that because a man believes, that he saved himself?? ......
skypair

No, that's not at all what I'm saying.
I'm saying that either Jesus alone saves, or Jesus and the gospel preacher saves.
So, which is it to you ?
Read my post again.

 

[psalms109:31]

Gospel

No, that's not at all what I'm saying.
I'm saying that either Jesus alone saves, or Jesus and the gospel preacher saves.
So, which is it to you ?
Read my post again.

Gospel= good news.

The Gospel introduces the Saviour.

How can they believe without some1 preaching to them?

Gospel preached Jesus saves.

 

[skypair]

No, that's not at all what I'm saying.
I'm saying that either Jesus alone saves, or Jesus and the gospel preacher saves.
So, which is it to you ?
Read my post again.

Oh. Well, my late pastor used to say that NT salvation was passed by "infection" -- like a cold, one person to another. But the pastor, for instance, is just the "carrier." He carried the "bug" just like all Christians do.

And when we do pass it on, we are really just the body of Christ -- so it is still Christ that saves.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

Who glorifies Himself for accepting a free gift, we glorify the giver and the maker of it.

By accepted something we can't say look at what my hands have made.

No, but we can say, "I chose rightly, and that person over there did not. Glory be to me for making the right decision vs. that other person."

Or, as Spurgeon put it...

I do not care to argue upon this point, except I put it thus: If any say, "It is man himself who makes the difference," I reply, "You are involving yourself in a great dilemma; if man himself makes the difference, then mark—man himself must have the glory." Now, I am certain you do not mean to give man the glory of his own salvation; you would not have men throw up their caps in heaven, and shout, "Unto ourselves be the glory, for we, ourselves, were the hinge and turning point of our own salvation." No, you would have all the saved cast their crowns at the feet of Jesus, and give to Him alone all the honour and all the glory. This, however, cannot be, unless, in that critical point, that diamond hinge upon which man's salvation shall turn, God shall have the control, and not the will of man. You know that those who do not believe this truth as a matter of doctrine, do believe it in their hearts as a matter of experience

 

[skypair]

No, but we can say, "I chose rightly, and that person over there did not. Glory be to me for making the right decision vs. that other person."

Or, as Spurgeon put it...

The reverse of which, I'm afraid, is false modesty and humility which I grant you --- Calvinists have that in abundance!

Have you considered what Christ said about Sardis lately. "You have a name that liveth but art dead." Sardis IS the architypical Reform/Calvinist church. They DO have the name of Jesus, but since they refuse to "receive" Him (on account they can have no part in their own salvation), they are still as "dead" as the man who does nothing and continues in his natural state.

skypair

 

[psalms109:31]

No, but we can say, "I chose rightly, and that person over there did not. Glory be to me for making the right decision vs. that other person."

Or, as Spurgeon put it...

Believing in Jesus has nothing to do with man's dicision, but God's discision to save believers. It is because God discided to save believers that we are saved.

If any man say's it is what I have done that saved me, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. The cost for our salvation is death.

 

[npetreley]

If any man say's it is what I have done that saved me, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. The cost for our salvation is death.

If any man says, "It was I who made the decision", or even "It is I who chose to believe", then he is saying that he is the hinge and turning point of his own salvation. He can say that he didn't make the way, Jesus did. But he is saying that he wouldn't be saved except for his own action.

 

[psalms109:31]

If any man says, "It was I who made the decision", or even "It is I who chose to believe", then he is saying that he is the hinge and turning point of his own salvation. He can say that he didn't make the way, Jesus did. But he is saying that he wouldn't be saved except for his own action.

It is God's action on the croos, if it was man's action that saved Him then He would be on the cross and not Jesus. You are trying to make belief the work for our salvation but it is not.

It is God who makes the rules, we are not depending on us at all, but on God's word. We are saved by grace through faith. Our salvation hinges on God and His word.

 

[webdog]

If any man says, "It was I who made the decision", or even "It is I who chose to believe", then he is saying that he is the hinge and turning point of his own salvation. He can say that he didn't make the way, Jesus did. But he is saying that he wouldn't be saved except for his own action.

This is a strawman, and NOT what 99.999% of non calvinists think or believe. I think you know that, but it makes your positon look oh so humble...

 

[reformedbeliever]

This is a strawman, and NOT what 99.999% of non calvinists think or believe. I think you know that, but it makes your positon look oh so humble...

Then why don't you explain what you believe instead of the rolling of the eyes. That might be helpful webdog.

 

[webdog]

Then why don't you explain what you believe instead of the rolling of the eyes. That might be helpful webdog.

OK. I don't believe what Npetreley stated