Are we beating a dead horse?

[npetreley]

This is a strawman, and NOT what 99.999% of non calvinists think or believe.

Who do you believe is responsible for making the decision to accept Jesus? Were you responsible? Then you are the hinge and turning point of your own salvation. You did not save yourself, but you were responsible for the pivotal choice, and can glory in that.

Was God responsible for you making the decision to accept Jesus? Then to God be the glory, and not you. You have no room to boast because not even your faith is of yourself.

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust

Who do you believe is responsible for making the decision to accept Jesus? Were you responsible? Then you are the hinge and turning point of your own salvation. You did not save yourself, but you were responsible for the pivotal choice, and can glory in that.

Was God responsible for you making the decision to accept Jesus? Then to God be the glory, and not you. You have no room to boast because not even your faith is of yourself.

The truth of the matter is this. We trust in Jesus and He will directs our paths. It is His direction that our salvation hinges on.

It is His word that our salvation hinges on.

You are trying so hard to make our decision as what saved us, but the truth of the matter it is His choice to save believers is what our salvation hinges on.

We have no hope for our salvation, but to trust in His word. This makes God the author and finisher of our faith. It is His word that leads and His word that saves us.

 

[skypair]

If any man says, "It was I who made the decision", or even "It is I who chose to believe", then he is saying that he is the hinge and turning point of his own salvation. He can say that he didn't make the way, Jesus did. But he is saying that he wouldn't be saved except for his own action.

That first part is a good way to view it. See, the salvation of mankind "hinged" upon Christ's sacrifice but each man's salvation "hinges" on his own decision based on that knowledge.

Better -- God controls His kingdom through Christ. But God doesn't control each man. ALL men were born into, and by sin belong to, Satan's kingdom. Man chooses whether or not he wants to enter God's kingdom and control or remain in Satan's. The servant MUST submit himself/herself to the King's control, right? Take an "oath of allegiance," so to speak.

It's not enough to pretend you are going along with the King when it is obvious He could crush you anyway! This is, in fact, what happens in the MK. It will be infested with hypocrites!!

I hope you understand that the church is similarly infested NOW by those who feigned repentance and then went into the Kings' field only seeming to obey His will without ever committing themselves to Him and receiving His "mark" (the Holy Spirit).

skypair

 

[webdog]

Who do you believe is responsible for making the decision to accept Jesus? Were you responsible?

Yes.

Then you are the hinge and turning point of your own salvation.

If you say so. Scripture doesn't agree with you. The turning point or "hinge" as you say comes the moment the gift giver decides to give a gift, not the acceptance of that gift.

You did not save yourself, but you were responsible for the pivotal choice, and can glory in that.

How can someone boast in the fact the decision was made to give a gift? How can one boast "look what I have done" in accepting a free gift? You didn't earn it. There is NOTHING to boast about in receiving a gift, that is a HUGE strawman. I would like to know how many calvinists this Christmas boasted "look what I did" when accepting Christmas presents...

My birthday is this week. When I open the prensents my family gets me (some lost), I am going to proclaim with my chest out "look what I have done" after opening each one. I can't wait to see their expressions on their faces. I'll then proceed to tell them (even the lost ones) "thanks for payment for what I have rightly worked so hard for." We'll see how it goes over...

Was God responsible for you making the decision to accept Jesus?

Yes and no. He is responsible in offering the gift...showing me the need for a Savior, and granting salvation, but in having faith? No. That is man's responsibility. If you claim it's God's responsibility, then it has to also be God's responsibility in not accepting the gift, meaning no justice is done in punishing that person for what God did. He has created every man with the ability to have faith in something. Some put their faith in themselves, some in God. God rewards those who put their faith in Him, and punishes those who do not. If as you say, God punishes those for the decision He made FOR THEM, He would be and unjust monster.

You have no room to boast because not even your faith is of yourself.

You are correct, I NEVER have a reason to boast by the ability to have faith given to ALL men.

It's sad that even the lost Pharisees know more about faith than the calvinist.
Mar 3:1 Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there with a withered hand.
Mar 3:2 And they watched Jesus, to see whether he would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse him.
Mar 3:3 And he said to the man with the withered hand, "Come here."
Mar 3:4 And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent.
Mar 3:5 And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored.
Mar 3:6 The Pharisees went out and immediately held counsel with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.

Who got the credit for healing his hand? Did Jesus say what the man did was "good"? If it was (the act of holding his hand out), he should have been put to death, also, as he "worked" alongside Christ in having his hand healed. Neither Christ, the man, nor the lost Pharisees saw the act of holding his hand out "work".

If faith is a "work", why didn't the Pharisees go after the man for stretching out his hand, since he was "working" on the sabbath? Obviously, faith is NOT a work, but is still something commanded. Couldn't Christ have healed his withered hand without commanding him to reach out? This is salvation in a nut shell. In order to be restored, we are to reach out our hand as He says to. If we don't, we won't be restored, but the decision is left up to man.

 

[reformedbeliever]

How can someone boast in the fact the decision was made to give a gift?

That decision was made by God in eternity past, before the foundation of the world. Are you now saying that men are eternally justified?

 

[webdog]

That decision was made by God in eternity past, before the foundation of the world. Are you now saying that men are eternally justified?

ETER'NITY, n. [L. oeternitas.] Duration or continuance without beginning or end.
Eternity "past" is a specific point in time, and an oxymoron, IMO, since there is no past, present or future in "eternity". Do you know when that specific point in the past was? Where did I even insinutate that man is "eternally" justified? From the moment of salvation, yes, he becomes eternally justified....from that point on. Prior to that? No.

 

[skypair]

That decision was made by God in eternity past, before the foundation of the world. Are you now saying that men are eternally justified?

reformb, webdog,

Reformbeliever has just posited 2 unequal thoughts: eternity past has no time element -- "before the foundation of the world" specifies that there IS a time element (is not timeless).

Reform --- no, God did NOT decide in eternity past who would be saved. He decided before the foundation of the world and, in doing so, He looked to an even earlier timepoint -- the time that He foreknew who would BELIEVE.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

reformb, webdog,

Reformbeliever has just posited 2 unequal thoughts: eternity past has no time element -- "before the foundation of the world" specifies that there IS a time element (is not timeless).

Reform --- no, God did NOT decide in eternity past who would be saved. He decided before the foundation of the world and, in doing so, He looked to an even earlier timepoint -- the time that He foreknew who would BELIEVE.

skypair

You have a strange view of God's knowledge. Do you believe God is all knowing or not? If you do, then there was never a point in time that God did not know something about man. All man's actions begin with what God already knows. That does not make Him the author of evil however.

 

[reformedbeliever]

reformb, webdog,

Reformbeliever has just posited 2 unequal thoughts: eternity past has no time element -- "before the foundation of the world" specifies that there IS a time element (is not timeless).

Reform --- no, God did NOT decide in eternity past who would be saved. He decided before the foundation of the world and, in doing so, He looked to an even earlier timepoint -- the time that He foreknew who would BELIEVE.

skypair

The reason I say eternity past is because we have no way of knowing when it was that God chose us, other than before the foundation of the world. If you would rather I say before the foundation of the world, I have no problem with that. It does not change what I was saying.

 

[skypair]

You have a strange view of God's knowledge. Do you believe God is all knowing or not? If you do, then there was never a point in time that God did not know something about man. All man's actions begin with what God already knows. That does not make Him the author of evil however.

If time has a beginning and God is eternal, then time is a creation of God along with every other creative decision that God made AFTER He created time. Does that help?

If time existed eternally and so did God, then you might be saying that God is time. And if we were known of God in eternity past, then we are God, right? Is that what you are saying?

skypair

 

[skypair]

The reason I say eternity past is because we have no way of knowing when it was that God chose us, other than before the foundation of the world. If you would rather I say before the foundation of the world, I have no problem with that. It does not change what I was saying.

Sure it does! It's puts the finger on precisely where Calvinism has it wrong! There was a time when God decided who would be saved. What was His criteria? Calvinism says "it pleased Him to glorify Himself." You have a God that chose to Himself a bunch of "trophy wives!"

Free will says that God, in point of time, SAW who would BELIEVE. He didn't choose "trophy wives" or random toys or any such impersonal, self-gratifying things! God, by His own sovereign will, decided to "learn" who would believe and them He "predestined" to be conformed to Christ's image.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

Sure it does! It's puts the finger on precisely where Calvinism has it wrong! There was a time when God decided who would be saved. What was His criteria? Calvinism says "it pleased Him to glorify Himself." You have a God that chose to Himself a bunch of "trophy wives!"

Free will says that God, in point of time, SAW who would BELIEVE. He didn't choose "trophy wives" or random toys or any such impersonal, self-gratifying things! God, by His own sovereign will, decided to "learn" who would believe and them He "predestined" to be conformed to Christ's image.

skypair

So now you are saying I worship another god? Thank you brother. I do not question your salvation, as you have no doubt done to me.

Someone, I believe Npet said earlier that you have just way too many errors to deal with. I agree. Its just too tireing. Grace and peace

 

[Rippon]

Skypair -- you are wrong . ReformedBeliever is right .

Around and around we go . Until Skypair and others of his ilk submit to biblical truth they will insist on their errors .

God does not merely forsee -- He determines . "Before the foundation of the world." Does anyone object to biblical terminology ?!

Even before he made the world , God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes . ( Eph. 1:4 - NLT2 )

 

[DQuixote]

I wasn't going to jump in since I believe this poor horse's back is worn out, his spirit broken, his hoofs raw to the bone. But.........

What God commands (faith, repentance, etc) He provides to those He has chosen.

I would change that to read:

What God commands (faith, repentence, etc) He provides.

Now, I'm outa here. No more election - free will for me.

Besides, election was for the Jews, not Gentiles.

Now, I'm outa here.

The scripture is clear: The Jewish Interlude, Romans chapter 9 thru 11, is Paul writing to the Romans about his concern for his Jewish brethren. Election is for the remnant, not for the whole of Judaism, and not for Gentiles.

Now, that's it.

Except that Ryrie gets it right. And Scofield.

OK, I'm finished.

.......and John Hagee in his book, Jerusalem Countdown.

That's it.

:thumbs:

 

[webdog]

Skypair -- you are wrong . ReformedBeliever is right .

Around and around we go . Until Skypair and others of his ilk submit to biblical truth they will insist on their errors .

God does not merely forsee -- He determines . "Before the foundation of the world." Does anyone object to biblical terminology ?!

Even before he made the world , God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes . ( Eph. 1:4 - NLT2 )

Well since you say skypair is wrong and reformedbeliever is right, I guess we can stop the debate now.

 

[Rippon]

Yeah , Webdog . I am so glad to have cleared everything up for everyone . It makes life less complicated .

 

[skypair]

So now you are saying I worship another god? Thank you brother. I do not question your salvation, as you have no doubt done to me.

Someone, I believe Npet said earlier that you have just way too many errors to deal with. I agree. Its just too tireing. Grace and peace

reformb --- I'll just keep it simple because I see that you would rather ignore than to face the truth about your theology.

Do you deny the appearances of your testimony? That God chooses random bodies to salvation only for His own self-gratification/pleasure and to protect His sovereignty?

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

reformb --- I'll just keep it simple because I see that you would rather ignore than to face the truth about your theology.

Do you deny the appearances of your testimony? That God chooses random bodies to salvation only for His own self-gratification/pleasure and to protect His sovereignty?

skypair

No sir..... I choose to employ the ignore feature of this bb. Congrats... you are one of two that I choose to ignore.

 

[skypair]

The reason I say eternity past is because we have no way of knowing when it was that God chose us, other than before the foundation of the world. If you would rather I say before the foundation of the world, I have no problem with that. It does not change what I was saying.

Well, it DOES change what you are saying. You said or implied that God doesn't "learn" anything --- such as who would believe, right? Yet if God were to create something in the "fabric" of time, there are only 2 options: 1) Calvinism or 2) scripture.

There's some pretty good points made on this thread already by which you should be able to see the truth. Either God 1) sovereignly commanded everything that happens (including sin) OR 2) He let some things occur according to the decisions of men. Any combination of these is really just alternative #2. Which is it, reformb? 1) Did God dictate everything that would happen micro-managing His creation lest He lose control (His sovereignty) and NOT learn anything OR 2) did He allow for men to reject Him and rebel against Him?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Skypair -- you are wrong . ReformedBeliever is right .

Around and around we go . Until Skypair and others of his ilk submit to biblical truth they will insist on their errors .

God does not merely forsee -- He determines . "Before the foundation of the world." Does anyone object to biblical terminology ?!

Even before he made the world , God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes . ( Eph. 1:4 - NLT2 )

rippon --- I believe Eph 1:4. There obviously was a beginning to God's love and therefore, a time when He didn't foreknow or predestine us.

So, same questions to you: 1) Did God dictate everything that would happen micro-managing His creation lest He lose control (His sovereignty) and NOT learn anything OR 2) did He allow for men to reject Him and rebel against Him? This appears to me to be pretty simple to answer. Give it a shot. Maybe you have a solution I haven't thought of yet. :tonofbricks:

skypair