Are We Born-Again Before Or After Faith?

[Silverhair]

Faith as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 comes when born of the Spirit, indicated here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: You notice how "belief of the truth" is adjoined with Sanctification of the Spirit ?

And the word belief is the same word for faith, the noun πίστις, so this confirms that Faith to believe the Gospel is a fruit, producing of the Spirit.

None are so blind as those that will not see and you continue to prove that BF.

The Holy Spirit convicts man of their sin, and points them to Christ. Man has to respond in faith/trust to the gospel truths before God in His grace will save them.

Justification is immediate upon faith in God, sanctification is growing to become more Christ like as you continue in your walk with God.

Sorry BF 2Th 2:13 does not support your false understanding of the text. You continue to struggle to find verses that will support your errant view but you continue to fail. Why not just trust what the word of God says rather than continue trying to bend it to your philosophy?

 

[atpollard]

Fun Fact: Gal 5:22 is speaking to those that are already believers. We are told what is the fruit of the Spirit one of them being "faithfulness". BF and you it would seem have also missed that point. Paul distinguishes between the works of the flesh, [Galatians 5:19-21] and the fruit of the Spirit. [Galatians 5:22-23] Works are produced by human energy. Fruit is grown as a branch abides in the vine. [John 15:5]

So when I asked BF the simple question, which you also should be able to answer he has just ignored it and made then same non answer.
So no false dilemma as there are only two options available A or B, before or after they believe. Contrary to your assertion it is a binary choice.

When does one get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
A] before they believe
or
B] after they believe

Just for the record, it was more of a commentary on the entire exchange ...

[paraphrasing the arguments behind your pages of repeated exchanges]
... BF: We are 100% saved before believing because 'God gives faith as a gift'.
... SH: The Holy Spirit sits quietly on the sidelines until we are indwelt 'after we are saved'.

THIS is the "False Dilemma Fallacy" (but nobody cares to give an inch on their entrenched positions to examine the truth).

 

[Brightfame52]

None are so blind as those that will not see and you continue to prove that BF.

The Holy Spirit convicts man of their sin, and points them to Christ. Man has to respond in faith/trust to the gospel truths before God in His grace will save them.

Justification is immediate upon faith in God, sanctification is growing to become more Christ like as you continue in your walk with God.

Sorry BF 2Th 2:13 does not support your false understanding of the text. You continue to struggle to find verses that will support your errant view but you continue to fail. Why not just trust what the word of God says rather than continue trying to bend it to your philosophy?

Faith as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 comes when born of the Spirit, indicated here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: You notice how "belief of the truth" is adjoined with Sanctification of the Spirit ?

And the word belief is the same word for faith, the noun πίστις, so this confirms that Faith to believe the Gospel is a fruit, producing of the Spirit.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

When does one get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Actually its a question born out of spiritual ignorance. Nobody knows when they are actually born of the Spirit, which is when He initially indwells, for Jesus says its a mysterious sovereign work as te wind Jn 3:6-8

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

When was John the baptist indwelt of the Spirit ? For he actually was Lk 1:15

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Now one of the evidences of having the Spirit of God indwelling is believing the Truth of the Gospel which you dont believe and actually speak evil of it calling it calvinism with hate.

 

[Silverhair]

Just for the record, it was more of a commentary on the entire exchange ...

[paraphrasing the arguments behind your pages of repeated exchanges]
... BF: We are 100% saved before believing because 'God gives faith as a gift'.
... SH: The Holy Spirit sits quietly on the sidelines until we are indwelt 'after we are saved'.

View attachment 11333 THIS is the "False Dilemma Fallacy" (but nobody cares to give an inch on their entrenched positions to examine the truth).

Well we can see your unbiased opinion there can't we. Well not quite.

BF: We are 100% saved before believing because 'God gives faith as a gift'.
That is a true refection of BF's view.

SH: The Holy Spirit sits quietly on the sidelines until we are indwelt 'after we are saved'.
You continue to misrepresent what I have said but that is not surprising.

The Holy Spirit convicts man of their sin and directs them toward God/Jesus but He does not indwell them prior to faith or give them faith.

So since those are biblical views, the truth, why would I give an inch to BF's false views?

So no f"False Dilemma Fallacy" just pointing BF to the truth of scripture.

 

[atpollard]

The Holy Spirit convicts man of their sin and directs them toward God/Jesus but He does not indwell them prior to faith or give them faith.

True, yet this is NOT how you chose to refute BFs error is it?

This is really a simple question BF.

When does one get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit BF, before or after believe?

Is it
A] before
or
B] after

Or my challenge to your position:

So no false dilemma as there are only two options available A or B, before or after they believe. Contrary to your assertion it is a binary choice.

When does one get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
A] before they believe
or
B] after they believe

YOU chose to counter "We are 100% saved before believing" with "We get the Spirit (that BF claims allows belief) after we believe."
Within the narrow confines of "belief and Spirit" I accurately reflected y'alls (BF & SH) excluded middle positions.

You would have done better to hammer "The Holy Spirit convicts man of their sin and directs them toward God/Jesus" over "He does not indwell them prior to faith or give them faith" to approach biblical truth over merely opposing BF's extreme by implying the opposite extreme.

[You will certainly disagree, so I leave y'all to your regularly scheduled ping-pong match.]

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Actually its a question born out of spiritual ignorance. Nobody knows when they are actually born of the Spirit, which is when He initially indwells, for Jesus says its a mysterious sovereign work as te wind Jn 3:6-8

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

When was John the baptist indwelt of the Spirit ? For he actually was Lk 1:15

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Now one of the evidences of having the Spirit of God indwelling is believing the Truth of the Gospel which you dont believe and actually speak evil of it calling it calvinism with hate.

Actually the bible speaks is quite clear of when one is born of the Spirit. It is when they believe.

Act 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message.
Act 10:45 All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now if you want to say we can be filled with the Holy Spirit that is biblically different.

John was filled from his birth for service
Luk_1:15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.

Elizabeth and Zacharias were filled and praised God. Luk 1:41 & Luk 1:67

Those in the upper room on Pentecost Act 2:4

Peter when he spoke to the Rulers and elders of the people! Act 4:8

Paul and the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit Act_13:9 & Act_13:52

And we can't forget that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit "Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit,..." Luk_4:1

Being born of the Holy Spirit is salvation being filled with the Holy Spirit is for service to God.

But I can excuse your not knowing this as it is born out of spiritual ignorance.

The reason that I speak out against calvinism is because it distorts the truth of God as it's foundation is from the 4th century when augustine brought pagan philosophy into the church. So why would you think any Christian would not hate that?

 

[Silverhair]

True, yet this is NOT how you chose to refute BFs error is it?



Or my challenge to your position:


YOU chose to counter "We are 100% saved before believing" with "We get the Spirit (that BF claims allows belief) after we believe."
Within the narrow confines of "belief and Spirit" I accurately reflected y'alls (BF & SH) excluded middle positions.

You would have done better to hammer "The Holy Spirit convicts man of their sin and directs them toward God/Jesus" over "He does not indwell them prior to faith or give them faith" to approach biblical truth over merely opposing BF's extreme by implying the opposite extreme.

[You will certainly disagree, so I leave y'all to your regularly scheduled ping-pong match.]

Convicting one of their sin is not giving one faith or saving them.
So the question is valid.

The bible itself is extreme
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[Brightfame52]

Actually the bible speaks is quite clear of when one is born of the Spirit. It is when they believe.

Act 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message.
Act 10:45 All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now if you want to say we can be filled with the Holy Spirit that is biblically different.

John was filled from his birth for service
Luk_1:15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.

Elizabeth and Zacharias were filled and praised God. Luk 1:41 & Luk 1:67

Those in the upper room on Pentecost Act 2:4

Peter when he spoke to the Rulers and elders of the people! Act 4:8

Paul and the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit Act_13:9 & Act_13:52

And we can't forget that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit "Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit,..." Luk_4:1

Being born of the Holy Spirit is salvation being filled with the Holy Spirit is for service to God.

But I can excuse your not knowing this as it is born out of spiritual ignorance.

The reason that I speak out against calvinism is because it distorts the truth of God as it's foundation is from the 4th century when augustine brought pagan philosophy into the church. So why would you think any Christian would not hate that?

The scripture doesnt say, its a mystery as the wind blows Jn 3:7-8

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

The scripture doesnt say, its a mystery as the wind blows Jn 3:7-8

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

To you perhaps but not to those that actually trust what the bible says.

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Gal 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

So it would seem your either do not have these verses in your bible or you ignore them or you do not understand what they say.

Your false understanding is the reason that I post on here so that others who read your posts will see that you post error.

 

[Salty]

Six hour Warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 0200 GMT Fri (9 pm EDT Thrs)

 

[Brightfame52]

To you perhaps but not to those that actually trust what the bible says.

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Gal 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

So it would seem your either do not have these verses in your bible or you ignore them or you do not understand what they say.

Your false understanding is the reason that I post on here so that others who read your posts will see that you post error.

The scripture doesnt say, its a mystery as the wind blows Jn 3:7-8

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

The scripture doesnt say, its a mystery as the wind blows Jn 3:7-8

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

You seem to have missed all these verses BF so I will post them again.

To you perhaps is is all a mystery but not to those that actually trust what the bible says.

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Gal 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

So it would seem your either do not have these verses in your bible or you ignore them or you do not understand what they say.

Your false understanding is the reason that I post on here so that others who read your posts will see that you post error.

 

[Brightfame52]

You seem to have missed all these verses BF so I will post them again.

To you perhaps is is all a mystery but not to those that actually trust what the bible says.

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Gal 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

So it would seem your either do not have these verses in your bible or you ignore them or you do not understand what they say.

Your false understanding is the reason that I post on here so that others who read your posts will see that you post error.

The scripture doesnt say, its a mystery as the wind blows Jn 3:7-8

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.