Are We Born-Again Before Or After Faith?

[Eternally Grateful]

That is where the C/R view is in disagreement with the bible, they have reversed the word of God.

Loraine Boettner stated the Calvinist position this way
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved." The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75
Calvinists have it backwards.

yes. for some reason. they think faith is a work of merit. and are afraid that even us trusting in God and his work is us earning salvation.

I do not know where this comes from

 

[Silverhair]

You cant believe in Jesus unless born of God. Jn 6:65

Read your bible BF and trust it not your C/R teachers as they have lead you astray.

(Joh_20:31) but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

1Jn_5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

Either the word of God is true or your C/R teachers are true BF, it cannot be both.

 

[Silverhair]

yes. for some reason. they think faith is a work of merit. and are afraid that even us trusting in God and his work is us earning salvation.

I do not know where this comes from

Pagan philosophy that augustine brought into the church.

 

[Van]

which means they did what Abraham, and believed God. and God accounted it to them as righteousness (romans 4)

I see That God predestined according to his will

john 6:
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

which goes along with what he said in John 5:


John 5:24

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

in both cases. seeing and believing, or hearing and believing are before one is given life.

And it goes to reason that those predestines are those who would do this

God does not have to know them by name before time began. He just predestined that whoever would see/hear and believe would be saved.


I think you need to reread James 2 and get context in order.

Jesus said otherwise, As did Paul

We are saved BY GRACE through faith.

remove faith from the equation. and you remove salvation.

God will not force you to believe

but as many as have received him..

I see it differently.


you seem to be back peddling..

I thought you said our faith has nothing to do with it

I) God credited their faith as righteousness to them, having nothing to do with making them righteous. That is only achieved through the blood of the Lamb.

2) A better translation of John 6:40, everyone who becomes aware of Christ and His gospel, and believes "into" Him, will have eternal life. Belief by itself, accomplishes nothing. But when and if God credits that belief as righteousness, then God transfers the individual "into Him, resulting in regeneration, and eternal life.

3) Those transferred spiritually into Christ, undergo the washing of regeneration, going from being spiritually dead in their sin, to being made alive together with Christ.

4) Yes, first we believe, then if God credits our faith as righteousness, we are transferred spiritually into Christ, resulting in our salvation.

5) Only after God individually chooses someone for salvation, based on crediting their faith as righteousness, are they predestined to:

1) be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29)
2) being bodily redeemed at Christ's second coming (Ephesians 1:5, Romans 8:23)
3) to receive their heavenly reward, (Ephesians 1:11)​

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I) God credited their faith as righteousness to them, having nothing to do with making them righteous. That is only achieved through the blood of the Lamb.

He did this AFTER they had faith.

2) A better translation of John 6:40, everyone who becomes aware of Christ and His gospel, and believes "into" Him, will have eternal life. Belief by itself, accomplishes nothing. But when and if God credits that belief as righteousness, then God transfers the individual "into Him, resulting in regeneration, and eternal life.

you need to study John my friend.

As well as paul

repentance and faith are essential doctrines of the gospel

3) Those transferred spiritually into Christ, undergo the washing of regeneration, going from being spiritually dead in their sin, to being made alive together with Christ.

Not while they are still dead in sin because of unbelief

4) Yes, first we believe, then if God credits our faith as righteousness, we are transferred spiritually into Christ, resulting in our salvation.

thank you

5) Only after God individually chooses someone for salvation, based on crediting their faith as righteousness, are they predestined to:

​

1) be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29)​

2) being bodily redeemed at Christ's second coming (Ephesians 1:5, Romans 8:23)​

3) to receive their heavenly reward, (Ephesians 1:11)​

yet God predestined before time began.

can we resolve this apparent contradiction?

 

[Dave G]

No.. they were born of God because they received him

That passage doesn't say that.
It says,

" As many as received Him...who were born of God."
It's descriptive, not conditional.

That's not what I see.

I'm sorry, but it appears we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Dave G]

We just do not come to faith on our own. It takes the work of God. As Jesus said, it is the work of God we believe

Agreed.

John 1: 11: 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (no works)

1. He came into his own (The nation he chose) and they did not recieve him
2. But as many of them that did. They were given the right or power to become children
3. Not by Blood - Not by birthright
4. Not by the will of the fesh - Not because in your own power figured it out. and willed yourself to heaven
5. Not by the will of man, Your family or loved one can not will you to heaven, nor can you will someone else to heaven.

It is God who draws. it is God who teaches, and convicts. and brings us to the point of faith. we can not do this

..and who does Scripture state that He does this for?

 

[Dave G]

can we resolve this apparent contradiction?

Yes, we can.

yes. for some reason. they think faith is a work of merit. and are afraid that even us trusting in God and his work is us earning salvation.

I do not know where this comes from

It comes from understanding that faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) given only to God's elect.
It comes from knowing that God's gifts are gifts, not things that we as rebellious sinners who hate God ( Romans 1 ), who will not come to Him that we might have life ( John 5:40 ) and who will not come to Him lest our deeds be reproved ( John 3:19-20 )...

...Can "will up" and do for Him.

It also comes from knowing just how broken and destitute we as believers are, without His miraculous work of the new birth in us.
My friend, true Scriptural faith ( that cannot fail under the most rigorous of spiritual texting ) is the evidence of God's work ( Hebrews 11:1 ) in a person, not the "condition" that God requires for a person to be saved.

It is the faith "of" Christ ( Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22-29 )...not "of" us.


That said, I take my leave of this thread.
I wish you well, sir, and may He bless you in many ways.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Eternally Grateful

which means they did what Abraham, and believed God. and God accounted it to them as righteousness (romans 4)

When Abraham believed God it was an evidence God had already made him Righteous, Believing God is a work of Righteousness, one has to be already regenerated to believe God as Per Abraham

Thats why Jesus challenged some jews who were related to Abraham naturally but not Spiritually, if they were Abrahams Spiritual Children Jesus said this Jn 8:39-40

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Think about it, what are the prominent works of Abraham ? Believing God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Read your bible BF and trust it not your C/R teachers as they have lead you astray.

(Joh_20:31) but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

1Jn_5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

Either the word of God is true or your C/R teachers are true BF, it cannot be both.

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and they [unregenerate] in the flesh cannot please God, and believing in Jesus Christ is pleasing in Gods sight 1 Jn 3:22-23

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That passage doesn't say that.
It says,

" As many as received Him...who were born of God."
It's descriptive, not conditional.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

to who did he give the right or power? to those who received him, or those who did not receive him?

I'm sorry, but it appears we'll have to agree to disagree.

yes.. We will have to

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agreed.

..and who does Scripture state that He does this for?

He came INTO HIS OWN.

but they did not receive him.

But as many as DID receive him?

john 3 says he came not to judge THE WORLD.. but that the world MAY be saved

so he did it for his own.. who rejected him, he did it for those who received him, and he did it for the world.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, we can.

It comes from understanding that faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) given only to God's elect.

who said faith is not a gift?

here you are just going by a doctrine.. Faith is given only to the elect.

He died for the world. that they world MAY be saved.

No one will have an excuse..

It comes from knowing that God's gifts are gifts, not things that we as rebellious sinners who hate God ( Romans 1 ), who will not come to Him that we might have life ( John 5:40 ) and who will not come to Him lest our deeds be reproved ( John 3:19-20 )...

I was a rebellious sinner who recieved him after he came to me.

many are called few are chosen..

...Can "will up" and do for Him.

You can't do anything for him, Me trusting him to save me is him doing something for me, not me doing something for him

It also comes from knowing just how broken and destitute we as believers are, without His miraculous work of the new birth in us.

Again, this is doctrinal teaching, not biblical.

God will not raise you to life while still dead in sin.

He who does not believe is condemned already.. God is not going to overturn my condemnation while still in a state of unbelief so he can make me alive

My friend, true Scriptural faith ( that cannot fail under the most rigorous of spiritual texting ) is the evidence of God's work ( Hebrews 11:1 ) in a person, not the "condition" that God requires for a person to be saved.

Yes, it is the evidence.

But what if the person does not believe. and remains in unbelief? does this mean God did not work to save them also? may it never be so.

It is the faith "of" Christ ( Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22-29 )...not "of" us.

lol.. Why are you so afraid of trusting in a savior sent to save you?

That said, I take my leave of this thread.
I wish you well, sir, and may He bless you in many ways.

lol.. you said agree to disagree three posts ago..

Do me a favor. Don't attack a person saying they do not know something, then leave when they disagree. it does not look good on yourself

 

[atpollard]

That is where the C/R view is in disagreement with the bible, they have reversed the word of God.

Loraine Boettner stated the Calvinist position this way
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved." The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75
Calvinists have it backwards.

Was "Paul" saved because "Saul" believed in Christ, or did "Paul" believe in Christ because God saved "Saul"?

 

[Silverhair]

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and they [unregenerate] in the flesh cannot please God, and believing in Jesus Christ is pleasing in Gods sight 1 Jn 3:22-23

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

It is really sad that so many on here will just not believe the word of God. They are determined to deny what is clearly taught so they can hold to a pagan philosophy that has been handed down to them via their beloved C/R teachers.

What is the Gospel (Good News)?

Because of His marvellous love and mercy God sent His beloved Son into the world (Joh_3:17; Mat_1:21-23; Luk_19:10; 1Ti_1:15). The Lord Jesus Christ, who is the everlasting God (Joh_1:1; Isa_7:14; Isa_9:6; Mic_5:2; Tit_2:13) and the Creator of all things (Joh_1:3; Col_1:13-16), died on the cross in MY place and as MY Substitute and thus He was the atoning sacrifice for my sins (Isa_53:1-12; Rom_5:6-8; 1Co_15:3-4; 2Co_5:21; Gal_1:4; 1Pe_2:24; 1Pe_3:18; 1Jn_2:2; 1Jn_3:16; 1Jn_4:10). He also rose again from the dead as proof that God the Father was pleased and satisfied that the death penalty was paid in full by God the Son (1Co_15:4-20; Rom_4:25) and to demonstrate that He (Jesus Christ) was and is all that He claimed to be (Rom_1:4).

What Must I Do To Be Saved?

In view of who Christ is and what He has done for me on the cross, it is my responsibility to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Act_16:30-31; Joh_3:16-18, Joh_3:36). This means I must come to Christ (Joh_6:35-37) and receive Him as my personal Saviour and Lord (Joh_1:12; Rom_6:23), realizing and believing the following facts:

1. The Lord Jesus is the only Saviour (Act_4:12; Joh_10:9; Joh_14:6). There is no salvation apart from Him.​
2. The Lord Jesus died and rose again for my salvation (1Th_4:14; 1Co_15:3-4; Rom_10:9).​
3. The Lord Jesus is able to save me (Heb_7:25; Isa_59:1; Mat_19:24-26).​
4. The Lord Jesus is willing to save me (Joh_6:37; compare 1Ti_2:4).​
5. The Lord Jesus will save me if I trust Him and Him alone as my Saviour (Joh_3:16).​

I also must realize that I am not saved....

...by good works (Isa_64:6; Eph_2:9; Tit_3:5);
...by trying to keep the law (Rom_3:20; Gal_2:16; Jas_2:10);
...by water baptism (Eph_2:8-9; Act_16:31).

I am only saved by the grace and mercy of God through faith (Eph_2:4-9 and Tit_3:4-7). Faith is resting all my weight upon Jesus Christ (who He is, what He has done and what He has said). Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to Thy cross I cling!

https://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/helpseek/salvation.PDF

 

[Van]

He did this AFTER they had faith.

you need to study John my friend.

As well as paul

repentance and faith are essential doctrines of the gospel

Not while they are still dead in sin because of unbelief

thank you

yet God predestined before time began.

can we resolve this apparent contradiction?

1) We agree, first we have our faith, and then God credits our faith as righteousness.

2) To address me and not the topic is a dodge, stick to the topic.

3) No one suggested repentance and faith are not essential, so again off topic. For God to credit our faith, it would be a faith like Abraham's.

4) Regeneration causes the person dead it sin to be made alive together with Christ. When individuals are chosen for salvation, they are dead in sin. And of course, since God has credited their faith, they are not in unbelief.

5) God did not predestine us to salvation. No verse says or suggests such a concept.

6) Only if we stick to the topic, and avoid extraneous comments about each other's limited understanding.

 

[Brightfame52]

It is really sad that so many on here will just not believe the word of God. They are determined to deny what is clearly taught so they can hold to a pagan philosophy that has been handed down to them via their beloved C/R teachers.

What is the Gospel (Good News)?

Because of His marvellous love and mercy God sent His beloved Son into the world (Joh_3:17; Mat_1:21-23; Luk_19:10; 1Ti_1:15). The Lord Jesus Christ, who is the everlasting God (Joh_1:1; Isa_7:14; Isa_9:6; Mic_5:2; Tit_2:13) and the Creator of all things (Joh_1:3; Col_1:13-16), died on the cross in MY place and as MY Substitute and thus He was the atoning sacrifice for my sins (Isa_53:1-12; Rom_5:6-8; 1Co_15:3-4; 2Co_5:21; Gal_1:4; 1Pe_2:24; 1Pe_3:18; 1Jn_2:2; 1Jn_3:16; 1Jn_4:10). He also rose again from the dead as proof that God the Father was pleased and satisfied that the death penalty was paid in full by God the Son (1Co_15:4-20; Rom_4:25) and to demonstrate that He (Jesus Christ) was and is all that He claimed to be (Rom_1:4).

What Must I Do To Be Saved?

In view of who Christ is and what He has done for me on the cross, it is my responsibility to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Act_16:30-31; Joh_3:16-18, Joh_3:36). This means I must come to Christ (Joh_6:35-37) and receive Him as my personal Saviour and Lord (Joh_1:12; Rom_6:23), realizing and believing the following facts:

1. The Lord Jesus is the only Saviour (Act_4:12; Joh_10:9; Joh_14:6). There is no salvation apart from Him.​
2. The Lord Jesus died and rose again for my salvation (1Th_4:14; 1Co_15:3-4; Rom_10:9).​
3. The Lord Jesus is able to save me (Heb_7:25; Isa_59:1; Mat_19:24-26).​
4. The Lord Jesus is willing to save me (Joh_6:37; compare 1Ti_2:4).​
5. The Lord Jesus will save me if I trust Him and Him alone as my Saviour (Joh_3:16).​

I also must realize that I am not saved....

...by good works (Isa_64:6; Eph_2:9; Tit_3:5);
...by trying to keep the law (Rom_3:20; Gal_2:16; Jas_2:10);
...by water baptism (Eph_2:8-9; Act_16:31).

I am only saved by the grace and mercy of God through faith (Eph_2:4-9 and Tit_3:4-7). Faith is resting all my weight upon Jesus Christ (who He is, what He has done and what He has said). Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to Thy cross I cling!

https://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/helpseek/salvation.PDF

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and they [unregenerate] in the flesh cannot please God, and believing in Jesus Christ is pleasing in Gods sight 1 Jn 3:22-23

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

 

[Silverhair]

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and they [unregenerate] in the flesh cannot please God, and believing in Jesus Christ is pleasing in Gods sight 1 Jn 3:22-23

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Bf you keep saying the same thing over and over and it does not change reality. Man can respond to the gospel message and either reject or believe it. If they believe it they are regenerated/born again by the grace of God. If they reject it then they are condemned.

You silly silly boy you think people are saved before they even believe.

 

[Brightfame52]

Bf you keep saying the same thing over and over and it does not change reality. Man can respond to the gospel message and either reject or believe it. If they believe it they are regenerated/born again by the grace of God. If they reject it then they are condemned.

You silly silly boy you think people are saved before they even believe.

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and they [unregenerate] in the flesh cannot please God,

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Faith as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 comes when born of the Spirit, indicated here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: You notice how "belief of the truth" is adjoined with Sanctification of the Spirit ? And the word belief is the same word for faith, the noun πίστις, so this confirms that Faith to believe the Gospel is a fruit, producing of the Spirit.

See an spiritually unsanctified person doesnt have the spiritual capacity to receive sanctified Truth. Our Gospel Faith, the Truth is called The Holy Faith Jude 1:20

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,