Are We Born-Again Before Or After Faith?

[Silverhair]

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and they [unregenerate] in the flesh cannot please God,

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

BF I know I have told you this many times but you still fail to understand it or apply it to the way you do your studies.

CONTEXT BF CONTEXT

If you had look back even a few verses you would understand that Paul in making a contrast between those who believe and those that do not.

BF read Rom 8:1-14 and the contrast will become obvious.

We know Paul is speaking to believers by these verses

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors; not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Pulling verses out of context, as you do, only leads you a false understand of the word of God.

 

[Silverhair]

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and they [unregenerate] in the flesh cannot please God,

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

BF I know I have told you this many times but you still fail to understand it or apply it to the way you do your studies.

CONTEXT BF CONTEXT

If you had look back even a few verses you would understand that Paul in making a contrast between those who believe and those that do not.

BF read Rom 8:1-14 and the contrast will become obvious.

We know Paul is speaking to believers by these verses

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors; not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Pulling verses out of context, as you do, only leads you a false understand of the word of God.

 

[Silverhair]

Faith as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 comes when born of the Spirit, indicated here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: You notice how "belief of the truth" is adjoined with Sanctification of the Spirit ? And the word belief is the same word for faith, the noun πίστις, so this confirms that Faith to believe the Gospel is a fruit, producing of the Spirit.

See an spiritually unsanctified person doesnt have the spiritual capacity to receive sanctified Truth. Our Gospel Faith, the Truth is called The Holy Faith Jude 1:20

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

BF what you have just done just proves what I have been saying to you over and over. You have to start reading and studying the context. You continue to ignore this and it leads you to make numerous errors on your thinking.

Gal 5:22-23 is telling us what the fruit of the Spirit is for those that have already believed. Not faith to believe or even the calvinist faith given after one is saved. It is continued faith/faithfulness.

The word “fruit” is singular, indicating that these qualities constitute a unity, all of which should be found in a believer who lives under the control of the Spirit.
Test your faith by your works. The fruit/works believers should have in their lives is listed in Gal_5:22-23. These are contrasted with the works of the flesh Gal_5:19-21

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
2Th 2:14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, context, Paul is writing to believers. They have responded in faith to the gospel message.
These two verses [2Th_2:13-14] need to be read together if you want to grasp the truths that Paul is teaching. {God has called them via the gospel message which they believed and are thus being sanctified by the Holy Spirit.} note Rom_10:17

BF for a third time, context, read verses 17-21. Jude is speaking of perseverance in the face of mockers, those that reject God.

Jude is writing to believers.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF I know I have told you this many times but you still fail to understand it or apply it to the way you do your studies.

CONTEXT BF CONTEXT

If you had look back even a few verses you would understand that Paul in making a contrast between those who believe and those that do not.

BF read Rom 8:1-14 and the contrast will become obvious.

We know Paul is speaking to believers by these verses

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors; not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Pulling verses out of context, as you do, only leads you a false understand of the word of God.

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and they [unregenerate] in the flesh cannot please God,

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF I know I have told you this many times but you still fail to understand it or apply it to the way you do your studies.

CONTEXT BF CONTEXT

If you had look back even a few verses you would understand that Paul in making a contrast between those who believe and those that do not.

BF read Rom 8:1-14 and the contrast will become obvious.

We know Paul is speaking to believers by these verses

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors; not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Pulling verses out of context, as you do, only leads you a false understand of the word of God.

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and they [unregenerate] in the flesh cannot please God,

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF what you have just done just proves what I have been saying to you over and over. You have to start reading and studying the context. You continue to ignore this and it leads you to make numerous errors on your thinking.

Gal 5:22-23 is telling us what the fruit of the Spirit is for those that have already believed. Not faith to believe or even the calvinist faith given after one is saved. It is continued faith/faithfulness.

The word “fruit” is singular, indicating that these qualities constitute a unity, all of which should be found in a believer who lives under the control of the Spirit.
Test your faith by your works. The fruit/works believers should have in their lives is listed in Gal_5:22-23. These are contrasted with the works of the flesh Gal_5:19-21

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
2Th 2:14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, context, Paul is writing to believers. They have responded in faith to the gospel message.
These two verses [2Th_2:13-14] need to be read together if you want to grasp the truths that Paul is teaching. {God has called them via the gospel message which they believed and are thus being sanctified by the Holy Spirit.} note Rom_10:17

BF for a third time, context, read verses 17-21. Jude is speaking of perseverance in the face of mockers, those that reject God.

Jude is writing to believers.

Faith as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 comes when born of the Spirit, indicated here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: You notice how "belief of the truth" is adjoined with Sanctification of the Spirit ? And the word belief is the same word for faith, the noun πίστις, so this confirms that Faith to believe the Gospel is a fruit, producing of the Spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and they [unregenerate] in the flesh cannot please God,

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh, DUH.

Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

When does one get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit BF, before or after believe?

 

[Silverhair]

Faith as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 comes when born of the Spirit, indicated here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: You notice how "belief of the truth" is adjoined with Sanctification of the Spirit ? And the word belief is the same word for faith, the noun πίστις, so this confirms that Faith to believe the Gospel is a fruit, producing of the Spirit.

BF you are showing what happens when you refuse to study the word of God in context. You make a fool of yourself because to deny the clear word of God.

Rom 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Rom 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
Rom 8:13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Paul is simply saying in Rom_8:7 that a mind that is “set on the flesh,” which is a “hostile” mind, does not submit to God and will not submit to God. But does this prove that one can’t, through God’s conviction of his sin, soften his hostile mind, yield to God’s call, and repent of setting his mind on the flesh? No, it does not!

In the very next verse we read, “And those who are in the flesh cannot please God (Rom_8:8). Does this verse prove that it is impossible for one to repent, no longer be “in the flesh” but be “in the Spirit”? Obviously not. (Rom_8:9)

Did Paul write what he wrote in Rom_8:7 to prove the truth of man’s total depravity and his need for God’s irresistible grace? No, he was writing to Christians to describe the difference between them and nonbelievers (Rom_8:4-11), to help them understand their obligation to put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit, and to warn them against “living according to the flesh” lest they die (Rom_8:12-14).

Again we see the classic error of the those who ignore context.

 

[Brightfame52]

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh, DUH.

Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

When does one get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit BF, before or after believe?

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and they [unregenerate] in the flesh cannot please God,

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you are showing what happens when you refuse to study the word of God in context. You make a fool of yourself because to deny the clear word of God.

Rom 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Rom 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
Rom 8:13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Paul is simply saying in Rom_8:7 that a mind that is “set on the flesh,” which is a “hostile” mind, does not submit to God and will not submit to God. But does this prove that one can’t, through God’s conviction of his sin, soften his hostile mind, yield to God’s call, and repent of setting his mind on the flesh? No, it does not!

In the very next verse we read, “And those who are in the flesh cannot please God (Rom_8:8). Does this verse prove that it is impossible for one to repent, no longer be “in the flesh” but be “in the Spirit”? Obviously not. (Rom_8:9)

Did Paul write what he wrote in Rom_8:7 to prove the truth of man’s total depravity and his need for God’s irresistible grace? No, he was writing to Christians to describe the difference between them and nonbelievers (Rom_8:4-11), to help them understand their obligation to put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit, and to warn them against “living according to the flesh” lest they die (Rom_8:12-14).

Again we see the classic error of the those who ignore context.

Here is some study:

Faith as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 comes when born of the Spirit, indicated here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: You notice how "belief of the truth" is adjoined with Sanctification of the Spirit ?
And the word belief is the same word for faith, the noun πίστις, so this confirms that Faith to believe the Gospel is a fruit, producing of the Spirit.

 

[kyredneck]

why some people believe

2nd Corinthians Chapter 4

6​	Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

and others do not

2nd Corinthians Chapter 4

4​	in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.

 

[Silverhair]

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and they [unregenerate] in the flesh cannot please God,

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Did you miss the question or are you just ignoring it BF?

When does one get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit BF, before or after believe?

 

[Silverhair]

Here is some study:

Faith as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 comes when born of the Spirit, indicated here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: You notice how "belief of the truth" is adjoined with Sanctification of the Spirit ?
And the word belief is the same word for faith, the noun πίστις, so this confirms that Faith to believe the Gospel is a fruit, producing of the Spirit.

BF you are just making it more obvious that you do not actually read what the word of God says.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. BSB

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. NASB

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the SpiritN41 is love,N42 joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,N43
Gal 5:23 gentleness, andN44 self-control. Against such things there is no law. NET

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. NIV

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. NKJV

Gal 5:22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things! NLT

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. UASV

These are the qualities that should be found in those that believe.

The word “fruit” is singular, indicating that these qualities constitute a unity, all of which should be found in a believer who lives under the control of the Spirit.
Test your faith by your works. The fruit/works believers should have in their lives is listed in Gal_5:22-23.

It is not faith so they will believe but faithfulness because they do believe. You are reading your false religion into the text BF.

 

[Brightfame52]

Did you miss the question or are you just ignoring it BF?

When does one get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit BF, before or after believe?

If one isn't born again, they are in the flesh Rom 8:7-8 and they [unregenerate] in the flesh cannot please God,

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you are just making it more obvious that you do not actually read what the word of God says.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. BSB

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. NASB

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the SpiritN41 is love,N42 joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,N43
Gal 5:23 gentleness, andN44 self-control. Against such things there is no law. NET

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. NIV

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. NKJV

Gal 5:22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things! NLT

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. UASV

These are the qualities that should be found in those that believe.

The word “fruit” is singular, indicating that these qualities constitute a unity, all of which should be found in a believer who lives under the control of the Spirit.
Test your faith by your works. The fruit/works believers should have in their lives is listed in Gal_5:22-23.

It is not faith so they will believe but faithfulness because they do believe. You are reading your false religion into the text BF.

Faith as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 comes when born of the Spirit, indicated here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: You notice how "belief of the truth" is adjoined with Sanctification of the Spirit ?
And the word belief is the same word for faith, the noun πίστις, so this confirms that Faith to believe the Gospel is a fruit, producing of the Spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

Did you miss the question or are you just ignoring it BF?

When does one get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit BF, before or after believe?

This is really a simple question BF.

When does one get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit BF, before or after believe?

Is it
A] before
or
B] after

 

[Silverhair]

Faith as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 comes when born of the Spirit, indicated here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: You notice how "belief of the truth" is adjoined with Sanctification of the Spirit ?
And the word belief is the same word for faith, the noun πίστις, so this confirms that Faith to believe the Gospel is a fruit, producing of the Spirit.

Not what the bible says but then you rarely trust what the bible actually says.

 

[atpollard]

Faith as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 comes when born of the Spirit, indicated here 2 Thess 2:13

When does one get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit BF, before or after believe?

30 Common Logical Fallacies–A Study Starter​

11.False Dilemma​

Also sometimes referred to as a “false dichotomy,” this is a fallacy in which one incorrectly places limitations on one’s possible options in a given scenario. This fallacy rests on the false premise that one is faced with a binary choice when it’s possible that multiple options are available. In essence, this occurs when one reduces the array of available options and alternatives to a simplified either-or condition.

Example 1:

• If you aren’t a capitalist, you must be a communist.

Example 2:

• Either God created the world or evolution is true.

Example 3:

• Speaker 1: I’m against the war.
• Speaker 2: You must hate our troops.

Example 4:

• You can either support our police or Black Lives Matter.

Fun Fact: The false dichotomy conflates “contraries” with “contradictories.” With contradictories, it is true that one or the other must be true. For instance, if we say somebody is alive, it means they must not be dead, and vice versa. By contrast, contraries are statements in which, at most, one such statement must be true, but in which it is also possible that neither statement is true. For instance, if we say that somebody “is not here,” we can’t definitively conclude that the person must be at home. It’s possible that the person is at home, at the supermarket, or aboard the international space station. We don’t know. From the statement, all we can conclude is that the person is not here. The false dichotomy overlooks the full array of possibilities.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not what the bible says but then you rarely trust what the bible actually says.

Faith as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 comes when born of the Spirit, indicated here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: You notice how "belief of the truth" is adjoined with Sanctification of the Spirit ?

And the word belief is the same word for faith, the noun πίστις, so this confirms that Faith to believe the Gospel is a fruit, producing of the Spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

30 Common Logical Fallacies–A Study Starter​

11.False Dilemma​

Also sometimes referred to as a “false dichotomy,” this is a fallacy in which one incorrectly places limitations on one’s possible options in a given scenario. This fallacy rests on the false premise that one is faced with a binary choice when it’s possible that multiple options are available. In essence, this occurs when one reduces the array of available options and alternatives to a simplified either-or condition.

Example 1:

• If you aren’t a capitalist, you must be a communist.

Example 2:

• Either God created the world or evolution is true.

Example 3:

• Speaker 1: I’m against the war.
• Speaker 2: You must hate our troops.

Example 4:

• You can either support our police or Black Lives Matter.

Fun Fact: The false dichotomy conflates “contraries” with “contradictories.” With contradictories, it is true that one or the other must be true. For instance, if we say somebody is alive, it means they must not be dead, and vice versa. By contrast, contraries are statements in which, at most, one such statement must be true, but in which it is also possible that neither statement is true. For instance, if we say that somebody “is not here,” we can’t definitively conclude that the person must be at home. It’s possible that the person is at home, at the supermarket, or aboard the international space station. We don’t know. From the statement, all we can conclude is that the person is not here. The false dichotomy overlooks the full array of possibilities.

Fun Fact: Gal 5:22 is speaking to those that are already believers. We are told what is the fruit of the Spirit one of them being "faithfulness". BF and you it would seem have also missed that point.

Paul distinguishes between the works of the flesh, [Galatians 5:19-21] and the fruit of the Spirit. [Galatians 5:22-23] Works are produced by human energy. Fruit is grown as a branch abides in the vine. [John 15:5]

So when I asked BF the simple question, which you also should be able to answer he has just ignored it and made then same non answer.

So no false dilemma as there are only two options available A or B, before or after they believe. Contrary to your assertion it is a binary choice.

When does one get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
A] before they believe
or
B] after they believe

​