Are we born Spiritually "alive" or "dead"?

[convicted1]

Bro Iconoclast brought up the assumption that we are born spiritually dead, whereas I believe we are born alive unto Christ, but AFTER sin is conceived in the heart, then we are in need of the "Saving Grace of God".

Here is why I believe this the way I do:

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Looks like here Apostle Paul states that he was "alive" once, but sin slew him. If he was already dead, what can "slay" a dead thing?

Here is the Strong's definition of the word used for "slew" in verse 11:

apokteinō
1) to kill in any way whatever

a) to destroy, to allow to perish

2) metaph. to extinguish, abolish

a) to inflict mortal death

b) to deprive of spiritual life and procure eternal misery in hell

So the word "slew" is accurate. So, explain to me, anyone, how can you "slew" a dead thing?

I won't go into Genesis Chapters 2 and 3 again in the other thread about "the Unregenerate man", because I think this along with Romans 7 shows that there is 'life" from birth, and then when "sin revives" in the heart, we die spiritually. So, BATTER UP!! Please keep this civil. We can makes our arguments peaceably, so let's show our CHRISTian love, even in our disagreements!! I love you ALL!! So, swing, batter, batter, swing!! :thumbs::thumbs:

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Bro Iconoclast brought up the assumption that we are born spiritually dead, whereas I believe we are born alive unto Christ, but AFTER sin is conceived in the heart, then we are in need of the "Saving Grace of God".

Here is why I believe this the way I do:

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Looks like here Apostle Paul states that he was "alive" once, but sin slew him. If he was already dead, what can "slay" a dead thing?

Here is the Strong's definition of the word used for "slew" in verse 11:

apokteinō
1) to kill in any way whatever

a) to destroy, to allow to perish

2) metaph. to extinguish, abolish

a) to inflict mortal death

b) to deprive of spiritual life and procure eternal misery in hell

So the word "slew" is accurate. So, explain to me, anyone, how can you "slew" a dead thing?

I won't go into Genesis Chapters 2 and 3 again in the other thread about "the Unregenerate man", because I think this along with Romans 7 shows that there is 'life" from birth, and then when "sin revives" in the heart, we die spiritually. So, BATTER UP!! Please keep this civil. We can makes our arguments peaceably, so let's show our CHRISTian love, even in our disagreements!! I love you ALL!! So, swing, batter, batter, swing!! :thumbs::thumbs:

i am I am's!!

Willis

I wanted to give the two greek words for "redeem" that are in the NT earlier, but the online version I was using malfunctioned at that time, so now, I am posting them here.

This word is found in Gal. 3:13,4:5 Eph. 5:16, Col. 4:5

exagorazo Strong's Greek 1805

1) to redeem

a) by payment of a price to recover from the power of another, to ransom, buy off

b) metaph. of Christ freeing the elect from the dominion of the Mosaic Law at the price of his vicarious death

2) to buy up, to buy up for one's self, for one's use

a) to make wise and sacred use of every opportunity for doing good, so that zeal and well doing are as it were the purchase money by which we make the time our own.


Here another word in the greek translated "redeem":

lytroo Strong's greek 3084: found in Luke 24:21, Tit. 2:14, and 1Pet 1:18

1) to release on receipt of ransom

2) to redeem, liberate by payment of ransom

a) to liberate

b) to cause to be released to one's self by payment of a ransom

c) to redeem

d) to deliver: from evils of every kind, internal and external.

So when we say that Jesus is our redeemer, we acknowledge He bought us back by His death, burial, and resurrection.

Let's look at a passage that just popped into my mind:

Hosea 3:1 Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.

2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:

3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.

Hosea was Gomer's husband, but he went and "bought her" for 15 pieces of silver and one and one half homer's of barley. I heard a preacher preach a while back that a homer of barley was worth 10 pieces of silver. So, in essence, he bought his wife(bride) back for 30 pieces of silver. Sound familiar?? So you see, even though we belong to God because He created us, we were seperated from him by OUR SINS, and Jesus "bought" us back by His death, burial, and resurrection!! Praise His sweet name for buying me back!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[webdog]

I think the fact alone that death is the ceasing of life is reason enough to believe that we are not created "dead". Somehow we seem to get "not guilty" and "innocent" confused. A child is not created innocent since they have the stain of sin being the sin nature and are under the curse being appointed to die ONCE (wouldn't it be twice if Augustinian original sin were true), but they are created not guilty not having consciously violated God's law. In the instance as a young child they unintentionally violate His law, the atonement has been made for unintentional sin. All of this parallels believers who are not spiritually dead, who will die physically, sin unintentionally (and intentionally) and are found not guilty in God's eye...not "innocent".

 

[Humblesmith]

I think yes, we are born spiritually dead. We are not created dead, but inherit it from our parents, Adam and Eve.

But while we are born spiritually dead, scripture teaches we are also sick, in need of a physicain, and polluted, in need of purification. Death is but one term used to describe the lost person. I understand scripture as saying "dead" means separation from God, not total annihilation or a ceasing to exist.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I think yes, we are born spiritually dead. We are not created dead, but inherit it from our parents, Adam and Eve.

But while we are born spiritually dead, scripture teaches we are also sick, in need of a physicain, and polluted, in need of purification. Death is but one term used to describe the lost person. I understand scripture as saying "dead" means separation from God, not total annihilation or a ceasing to exist.

If we are born spiritually dead then I assume you believe that all who die in infancy are doomed to hell. Do you believe that?

 

[webdog]

I think yes, we are born spiritually dead. We are not created dead, but inherit it from our parents, Adam and Eve.

At what point from conception to birth does the baby sin to dies spiritually? Scripture state we are dead in OUR transgressions and sins.

 

[Iconoclast]

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


If you do not understand this,you do not understand the gospel correctly.

The verses in rom7 have nothing to do with this issue.













i

 

[webdog]

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Options:

In Adam = everyone dies
...so as...
In Christ = everyone live

or...

In Adam = everyone dies the way Adam died
...so as...
In Christ = everyone lives the way Christ lives

...or...
In Adam = everyone dies physically
...so as...
In Christ = everyone lives spiritually

Your view is not the only understanding of the text.

If you do not understand this,you do not understand the gospel correctly.

Wrong, you can understand the Gospel without understanding the mechanics.

The verses in rom7 have nothing to do with this issue.

...according to you and your theology. In fact, you need it to not mean what it means for your view to work. Paul states emphatically "I was alive apart from the law". There is no way around that.

 

[Iconoclast]

Options:

In Adam = everyone dies
...so as...
In Christ = everyone live

or...

In Adam = everyone dies the way Adam died
...so as...
In Christ = everyone lives the way Christ lives

...or...
In Adam = everyone dies physically
...so as...
In Christ = everyone lives spiritually

Your view is not the only understanding of the text.
Wrong, you can understand the Gospel without understanding the mechanics.
...according to you and your theology. In fact, you need it to not mean what it means for your view to work. Paul states emphatically "I was alive apart from the law". There is no way around that.

Webdog.....

In Adam = everyone dies
...so as...
In Christ = everyone live

or...

In Adam = everyone dies the way Adam died
...so as...
In Christ = everyone lives the way Christ lives

...or...
In Adam = everyone dies physically
...so as...
In Christ = everyone lives spiritually

God told Adam in the day you eat,,,dying thou shalt surely die.
Adam ate.....he did not physically die that day. He died spiritually[seperation from God...isa59:2. Physical death followed.

It clearly says in Romans 5...we did not sin in the same way,the simlitude of Adams sin,yet we died in Him.

Everyone is born physically alive,mentally alert,but spiritually dead,
that is why we need to be born from above.

As adams sin and death comes upon all men born physically
Christs righteous life is given to all who live in Him.

In Adam,sin and death
In Christ righteousness and life.
[QUOTE45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

][/QUOTE]

I answered your other post on the atonement thread also

 

[percho]

I believe we are born of the flesh (that is flesh and blood and the life (same word as soul) is in the blood) therefore a living soul but in order to see, inherit or enter the kingdom of God we will need to be born of the Spirit. See John 3 and 1 Cor. 15

 

[psalms109:31]

Flesh

The life to this flesh is blood, this totally depraved flesh. The life to our soul is the Spirit a marriage. How all of us become one! We are separated from it, but it isn't far it is at the door knocking to come in and all you have to do is open it and let Him in.

Revelation 3:20
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

This Spirit and life is in the words of Jesus, just open the door when He knocks and let Him in. God has done something else through the cross so your very soul can be reached.

Romans 8:
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

God isn't out to save the spirit. Does God need to save Himself? He is out to save our soul.

1 Peter 1:8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

 

[convicted1]

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


If you do not understand this,you do not understand the gospel correctly.

The verses in rom7 have nothing to do with this issue.


Bro Iconoclast,

I am by no means trying to be argumentative(sp?) in this discussion; its just that I want to show you my position on this subject(and so do you), and I will try to post this with humility.

In Adam all die, this is correct. Our flesh is sown in sin, meaning that it took intercourse(a sinful act in itself and only allowed in the marriage bed), to bring us about. We have to die this death on the basis of Adam's transgression against God in the Garden. But if we die "spiritually" it is on the account of OUR SINS and not Adam's. Here is a scripture to back this up:

Ezek. 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This scripture states that each man will bear his own iniquity, not the iniquities of his father. We are held accountable for what we do, and not what Adam did.

What is the only penalty for sin?? Death. Death=seperation from God. Adam was not seperated from God until Eve tempted him, and he ate of the fruit, and their eyes were open to sin. Then, and only then, did God come to confront Adam about this. The end result was they were kicked out of the Garden because of their sin, and a flaming sword was placed between them and the Tree of Life, which I believe to be Jesus. The flaming sword is the gospel, and the only way back to the Tree of Life is through the gospel(the flaming sword).

Romans 1:16 For Iam not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I have heard people say that Adam's situation was totally different from ours, but how? Are we not made from the dust of the earth? Did not God breathe into us the "breath of life", and we became a living soul? If we are born spiritually dead, then by reasoning, if we die in infancy, we are doomed to a devil's hell. The soul that sinneth, it shall die!! (Ezek. 18:4,20). Christ redeemed us from the works of the law, which worked unto death. To be "re"deemed, means to be bought back. The prefix "re", means "again". "Re"do=do over, "re"move= to take away what was there. IOW, "re"deemed= we are His again(those who truly believe) by His death, burial, and resurrection!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Every single man, woman and child that ever walked this Earth after Adam and Eve were born spiritually dead...except One, the Lord Jesus Christ.

One is spiritually dead until one places one's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ who is the propitiation for his or her sins. None are born sinless. All have been stained by the offense of Adam.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 5:18

 

[convicted1]

Every single man, woman and child that ever walked this Earth after Adam and Eve were born spiritually dead...except One, the Lord Jesus Christ.

One is spiritually dead until one places one's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ who is the propitiation for his or her sins. None are born sinless. All have been stained by the offense of Adam.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 5:18

Bro Fred,

With all due respect(and I really mean this, btw), the offence of one is the sin of Adam, and I am quite sure we both agree on this. However, we are required to die naturally because of Adam's sin, but we die spiritually because of our sins, and not his.

Job 19:25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

I am using this little passage to show that even Job knew he would see God for himself, and for what he did in his life. Again, the death sentence that was given to Adam and Eve was that they died spiritually in the Garden due to their transgression unto God. They were "alive unto Him" prior to this. This is the same thing with us when we are born. Our body has the "curse of death" that was passed down through Adam, but the "curse of death" that gets applied to our soul is when we do not glorify God as God(knowing good from evil).


James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

A baby doesn't know to do good or evil, therefore it's not held accountable unto God.

Rom.4: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

To all my Brothers and Sisters in Christ on BB:

I do not want you to think that I am waiting "in the bushes", ready to shoot you down as soon as you post something that opposes my belief on this. I do cherish that you are willing to take the time out of your day, to respond to this. Thanks again to all of you.

Now, with that being said, let us get back to the topic at hand. A few minutes ago, a couple passages came into my mind(amazing, huh?LOL) and I want to share them with you.

Gen. 38:6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.

7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.

8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

10And the thing which he did displeased the LORD:wherefore he slew him also.

Lev. 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Now here are two passages given where people were commanded to do something, and they didn't, and God slayed them. This was because of their sins, not the sin of Adam. If Adam and Eve had not transgressed in the garden, they would be alive even unto day, because the penalty of sin is death. I pray that someone, anyone, can get a firm grasp of where I am coming from with this. We WILL DIE naturally because of Adam, but when WE DIE SPIRITUALLY, it's because of OUR SINS! If anyone dies lost(spiritual death for eternity), it's because they failed to believe that "He is, and that He is a rewarder of them which do diligently seek Him". IOW, ALL WILL DIE physically, but not all will die spiritually, in that they died in infancy. I hope this helps!! I love you ALL!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Old Union Brother]

I'm with you

I'm with you on this one Convicted1. I'm sure you knew this knowing my background. You are doing a very good job showing your (our) position. Hang in there you are doing a good job.:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[jaigner]

Original sin, baby.

It's forensic, it's pervasive, it's gonna happen.

Sha-boom. There's your daily dose of Augustine.

 

[webdog]

Original sin is true...it occurred in the garden.

We are dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1, Colossians 2:13), so unless we did so at the moment of conception we were not spiritually dead.

 

[Tom Butler]

If Adam and Eve had not transgressed in the garden, they would be alive even unto day, because the penalty of sin is death. I pray that someone, anyone, can get a firm grasp of where I am coming from with this. We WILL DIE naturally because of Adam, but when WE DIE SPIRITUALLY, it's because of OUR SINS! If anyone dies lost(spiritual death for eternity), it's because they failed to believe that "He is, and that He is a rewarder of them which do diligently seek Him". IOW, ALL WILL DIE physically, but not all will die spiritually, in that they died in infancy.

This is where I am on this right now, with some minor variation applying to those who have never heard the gospel.

 

[glfredrick]

The one thing I see missing from the concept of an innocent birth is that we sin in more than one way (intentional sin). We sin by omission, by comission, by choice, and by ignorance. The Bible is very clear that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

I continue to see some put forth a convoluted theology that seems to indicate that there is "hope" apart from Christ alone. That is in direct contrast to the very plain and simple message of the Scriptures, that our only hope is in (always, before and after His coming) Christ alone.

If a child is innocent until the point when he or she sins, and they never hear the Law of God, and (somehow) never comimit an act of sin, then they would be blameless according to the OP theology. I cannot see that ever being true, and in fact, Jesus rebuked the rich young ruler who thought that he was the one who had accomplished such a feat.

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Romans 3:9-10 - "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one."

Romans 3:23 - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Psalm 14:3 - "They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."