Are we born Spiritually "alive" or "dead"?

[webdog]

The one thing I see missing from the concept of an innocent birth is that we sin in more than one way (intentional sin). We sin by omission, by comission, by choice, and by ignorance. The Bible is very clear that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

It was back on the last page I outlined the difference between innocent and not guilty. All "have" sinned is past tense, being spoken to adult or those who could understand not only how to read but the concept.

I continue to see some put forth a convoluted theology that seems to indicate that there is "hope" apart from Christ alone. That is in direct contrast to the very plain and simple message of the Scriptures, that our only hope is in (always, before and after His coming) Christ alone.

I haven't seen that here at all, in fact I even spoke of the OT atonement being made on behalf of unintentional sin. Christ is the Atonement.

If a child is innocent until the point when he or she sins, and they never hear the Law of God, and (somehow) never comimit an act of sin, then they would be blameless according to the OP theology. I cannot see that ever being true, and in fact, Jesus rebuked the rich young ruler who thought that he was the one who had accomplished such a feat.

First, already touched on "innocent". Second...yes a newly conceived human is blameless before God. They are under the curse and have been appointed ONCE to die, but spiritually they are blameless. If not, please tell us which sin the newly conceived human committed...just being conceived? The rich young ruler was an adult who HAD sinned...you cannot compare that to a fetus, new born, etc. Believers are blameless before God as well.
You cannot make a Psalm done in poetic language using hyperbole to prove literal truth. It's amazing those two Psalms are always used as the literal proof texts when in each chapter they give different points (from conception as opposed to from birth...which is it?). Paul was speaking to adults who had sinned, not about human condition upon birth.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The one thing I see missing from the concept of an innocent birth is that we sin in more than one way (intentional sin). We sin by omission, by comission, by choice, and by ignorance. The Bible is very clear that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

I continue to see some put forth a convoluted theology that seems to indicate that there is "hope" apart from Christ alone. That is in direct contrast to the very plain and simple message of the Scriptures, that our only hope is in (always, before and after His coming) Christ alone.

If a child is innocent until the point when he or she sins, and they never hear the Law of God, and (somehow) never comimit an act of sin, then they would be blameless according to the OP theology. I cannot see that ever being true, and in fact, Jesus rebuked the rich young ruler who thought that he was the one who had accomplished such a feat.

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Romans 3:9-10 - "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one."

Romans 3:23 - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Psalm 14:3 - "They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Excellent post! And since Scripture says 'all have sinned,' wouldn't that even include infants? It does not say 'all but infants have sinned, it says all.'

The fact is, all are born sinners.

 

[webdog]

Excellent post! And since Scripture says 'all have sinned,' wouldn't that even include infants? It does not say 'all but infants have sinned, it says all.'

The fact is, all are born sinners.

Have sinned is past tense...so please tell us at what point did the infant sin (and told tell me they sinned in Adam, we die in our own trespasses and sins)

 

[jaigner]

Have sinned is past tense...so please tell us at what point did the infant sin (and told tell me they sinned in Adam, we die in our own trespasses and sins)

Theologically speaking, being born into a fallen means that we are born into a fallen state. It's forensic. It's in our blood. We are dead in our sins.

It's not that we keep recreating the fall every time someone commits their first sin. The world is fallen. We're conceived by fallen people and born into a fallen world.

 

[webdog]

Theologically speaking, being born into a fallen means that we are born into a fallen state. It's forensic. It's in our blood. We are dead in our sins.

It's not that we keep recreating the fall every time someone commits their first sin. The world is fallen. We're conceived by fallen people and born into a fallen world.

I believe we are born into a fallen state, hence physical death and the sin nature and it is part of human nature. Like the rest of our human nature, we will walk and talk at some point due to our nature, but we are not conceived "walkers and talkers".

You said it...we are dead in OUR sins, we are not dead in someone elses. I'm not held accountable for my father's sin, yet I came from him. So upon birth, what sin did the infant commit during those 9 months in the womb?

This doctrine shouldn't be original sin, it should be original guilt.

 

[jaigner]

I believe we are born into a fallen state, hence physical death and the sin nature and it is part of human nature. Like the rest of our human nature, we will walk and talk at some point due to our nature, but we are not conceived "walkers and talkers".

You said it...we are dead in OUR sins, we are not dead in someone elses. I'm not held accountable for my father's sin, yet I came from him. So upon birth, what sin did the infant commit during those 9 months in the womb?

This doctrine shouldn't be original sin, it should be original guilt.

Part of the problem is defining sin as "bad things we do." It's inclusive of that, but early understanding of sin was much more broad. Sin was more of a state; a cosmic reality. It is opposition to God. That's how original sin works. We are guilty in a sinful state, not simply because of the single bad things we might have done.

 

[webdog]

Part of the problem is defining sin as "bad things we do." It's inclusive of that, but early understanding of sin was much more broad. Sin was more of a state; a cosmic reality. It is opposition to God. That's how original sin works. We are guilty in a sinful state, not simply because of the single bad things we might have done.

You have a faulty definition of sin. Why not let the Bible define what sin is?

1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

It simply is the transgression of God's law either through action, non action or thought...it is not some "cosmic reality"...that sounds like something Oprah would say. :laugh:

 

[jaigner]

You have a faulty definition of sin. Why not let the Bible define what sin is?

1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

It simply is the transgression of God's law either through action, non action or thought...it is not some "cosmic reality"...that sounds like something Oprah would say. :laugh:

Webdog, do you have a theological or biblical studies degree? I'm not trying to be accusatory here, just curious.

Actually, biblical scholars talk about a cosmic nature all the time, because the universe is fallen and to be redeemed by Christ.

And picking one verse from the Bible does not on its own give us a definition of sin. It's only part of sin. I'd suggest reading the whole book of Colossians to help with a more cohesive definition of sin. Colossians is a book that deals with the cosmic reality of falleness and redemption. It frequently talks about sin in a singular manner, as one big reality in which the world turns.

 

[webdog]

Webdog, do you have a theological or biblical studies degree? I'm not trying to be accusatory here, just curious.

How is this relevant?

Actually, biblical scholars talk about a cosmic nature all the time, because the universe is fallen.

Do you have a list (reformed and non reformed alike)? Biblical scholars can pull proof why we should baptize infants, too. Much is tied to Augustine's view.

And picking one verse from the Bible does not on its own give us a definition of sin. It's only part of sin. I'd suggest reading the whole book of Colossians to help with a more cohesive definition of sin. Colossians is a book that deals with the cosmic reality.

Absolutely it gives you THE definition of sin! It's as plain as the nose on your face "sin is breaking God's Law". We witness this early in Genesis when God said "you do this (break my law) you will die". No need for quantum physics to explain our condition, when we do as Adam did, we die as Adam did...so simple a child can understand it!

I've read Colossians countless times and cannot recall anything remotely to a "cosmic sin reality". In fact I googled that phrase and it came up nothing.

 

[jaigner]

How is this relevant?

It's relevant because in any good NT theology course, you would have heard about the fallenness of the universe, or the cosmos. Especially when you get to Colossians, you would have talked about Christ's victory over the singular condition of sin that affects the world.

Do you have a list (reformed and non reformed alike)?

It would be easier to make a list of who doesn't.

Absolutely it gives you THE definition of sin! It's as plain as the nose on your face "sin is breaking God's Law". We witness this early in Genesis when God said "you do this (break my law) you will die". No need for quantum physics to explain our condition, when we do as Adam did, we die as Adam did...so simple a child can understand it!

It gives you A definition of sin, dude. You cannot ever, ever just pull verses here and there and patch them together. They have to be taken from the cohesive biblical account. Different authors and their approaches have to be taken into account. Genre has to be taken into account. Yes, sin can be defined as breaking God's law, but it can also, as it is in Colossians, be defined as a singular, universal condition.

I've read Colossians countless times and cannot recall anything remotely to a "cosmic sin reality". In fact I googled that phrase and it came up nothing.

Google "colossians" and "cosmic." That should help you out. Also get a decent commentary on the book and read about the background and the people. N.T. Wright is a good place to start. Tyndale has some good commentaries, as well.

 

[webdog]

Why even take the time to respond...if you really weren't going to say anything? I've been schooled on proper hermeneutics. I understand ALL of creation has been affected by sin...that's entirely moot to this discussion.

I've read Colossians numerous times (actually lead a study on the book a few years back), I've used numerous commentaries in doing the study, and can tell you if it was as clear as you make it out to be I wouldn't be asking. Me thinks it's pure eisegesis to come to such a conclusion based on that book of the Bible.

I googled those phrases...and it comes up about Christ...nothing about some cosmic sin conditon.

It is not A definition of sin...it is THE definition of sin. If you don't like that, then it's on you.

 

[jaigner]

I've read Colossians numerous times (actually lead a study on the book a few years back), I've used numerous commentaries in doing the study, and can tell you if it was as clear as you make it out to be I wouldn't be asking. Me thinks it's pure eisegesis to come to such a conclusion based on that book of the Bible.

I googled those phrases...and it comes up about Christ...nothing about some cosmic sin conditon.

It is not A definition of sin...it is THE definition of sin. If you don't like that, then it's on you.

Here's my actual quote: "Actually, biblical scholars talk about a cosmic nature all the time, because the universe is fallen and to be redeemed by Christ."

Cosmic salvation is needed because of a cosmic state of falleness. It's the sin condition.

I'm not at all saying your definition is incorrect. It is, but it's not an all-inclusive definition. It doesn't systematize everything the Bible has to say about sin. I don't understand why you think I'm just choosing not to believe the Bible because I don't agree with you. I believe in the entire of the biblical account.

You can't just "supply" scripture like that to prove the point you want to make.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Have sinned is past tense...so please tell us at what point did the infant sin (and told tell me they sinned in Adam, we die in our own trespasses and sins)

I am not the One who told Paul to write that "all have sinned." Ask God at what point an infant sinned, it is His Word that declares it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

And in sin did my mother conceive me. He goes back to the earliest moment of his being, not to traduce his mother, but to acknowledge the deep tap roots of his sin. It is a wicked wresting of Scripture to deny that original sin and natural depravity are here taught. Surely men who cavil at this doctrine have need to be taught of the Holy Spirit what be the first principles of the faith. David's mother was the Lord's handmaid, he was born in chaste wedlock, of a good father, and he was himself, "the man after God's own heart;" and yet his nature was as fallen as that of any other son of Adam, and there only needed the occasion for the manifesting of that sad fact. In our shaping we were put out of shape, and when we were conceived our nature conceived sin. Alas, for poor humanity! Those who will may cry it up, but he is most blessed who in his own soul has learned to lament his lost estate.

Verse 5. Notwithstanding all that Grotius and others have said to the contrary, I believe David to speak here of what is commonly called original sin; the propensity to evil which every man brings into the world with him, and which is the fruitful source whence all transgression proceeds. Adam Clarke.

EXPLANATORY NOTES AND QUAINT SAYINGS

Verse 1,5. Transgressions ... iniquity ... sin.


It is transgressions, ([fp), pesha, rebellion.
It is iniquity, (!w[), avon, crooked dealing.
It is sin, (tajx), chattath, error and wandering. Adam Clarke.
Verse 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, etc. He said not, "Behold, this evil have I done," but, Behold, I was conceived in sin, etc. He says not, "Behold, I, David," a king, that have received such and such mercies from God, who would have given me more (as God told him), who had that entire communion with him, and graces from him, I, even I, have done this evil. No; he keeps it in till he came to this, and then his heart could hold no longer: Oh, behold I was conceived in sin.

 

[percho]

Does this cover a one minute old baby? That which is born of the flesh is flesh.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again.

 

[psalms109:31]

Soul sinneth

So we know that a flesh of a baby is conceived in sin and iniquity, what about his soul? We also know that the soul that sinneth is the soul that dies?

 

[Iconoclast]

So we know that a flesh of a baby is conceived in sin and iniquity, what about his soul? We also know that the soul that sinneth is the soul that dies?

Be careful....you are almost drifting into the gnostic philosophy seperating body and soul...good and evil

23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[webdog]

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

You have taken poetic figurative language and applied it as literal truth. If you are going literal here, are we truly cleansed with hyssop and have you heard crushed bones rejoice?

 

[webdog]

Be careful....you are almost drifting into the gnostic philosophy seperating body and soul...good and evil

No he isn't. Noting that we die physically and not spiritually is also gnostic?

 

[webdog]

I am not the One who told Paul to write that "all have sinned." Ask God at what point an infant sinned, it is His Word that declares it.

I'm asking you, you should be able to support your beliefs from Scripture. Paul said "have sinned" (past), so surely you can tell me at what point in time the 30 second old newly conceived human committed sin.

I don't have to ask God at what point an infant transgressed His law...they haven't, it's quite a simple concept. I'm amazed so many believers today hold so tight to a Roman Catholic false doctrine!