Are we born Spiritually "alive" or "dead"?

[psalms109:31]

Be careful....you are almost drifting into the gnostic philosophy seperating body and soul...good and evil

Quote:
23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

This body that will be preserved will not be this one the way it is, it will be changed this body cannot enter the way it is corrupted by sin. Our soul of a believer right now is being changed renewed by the very Holy Spirit, but this body is slowly decaying.

2 Corinthians 4:16
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I'm asking you, you should be able to support your beliefs from Scripture. Paul said "have sinned" (past), so surely you can tell me at what point in time the 30 second old newly conceived human committed sin.

I don't have to ask God at what point an infant transgressed His law...they haven't, it's quite a simple concept. I'm amazed so many believers today hold so tight to a Roman Catholic false doctrine!

You claim Paul said 'have sinned' because he was speaking about the adults. Can you present to me which sins all adults had committed using Scripture? Which sins?

 

[Jim1999]

Why do we have to name a sin? Man is conceived and born in a sin nature, inherited in Adam.

Otherwise, a man could live a good life and never have to trouble about salvation. There is nothing to save him from. Works salvation would be a wonderful relief to humanity.

Sadly scripture says that "by grace are you saved, through faith, and not by works, lest any man should boast."..It says that "faith" is the gift of God....It is not indwelt from before time, and I certainly didn't earn it.

Then, one of the greatests myths of all time is this so-called age of accountability. This makes a mockery of God and His sovereignty. If you want to count on redemption for children, you might consider it is God's choosing, and it does not require an act on the part of the child.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[webdog]

You claim Paul said 'have sinned' because he was speaking about the adults. Can you present to me which sins all adults had committed using Scripture? Which sins?

I asked you first.

 

[webdog]

Why do we have to name a sin? Man is conceived and born in a sin nature, inherited in Adam.

Inheriting a sin nature and lawlessness are not the same. We are dead in OUR trespasses and sins, not Adam's.

Otherwise, a man could live a good life and never have to trouble about salvation. There is nothing to save him from. Works salvation would be a wonderful relief to humanity.

...only if he did not have a sin nature. He does. That guarantees your assumption is false.

Sadly scripture says that "by grace are you saved, through faith, and not by works, lest any man should boast."..It says that "faith" is the gift of God....It is not indwelt from before time, and I certainly didn't earn it.

It doesn't say faith is a gift of God, but at any rate, please do tell how a zygote possibly exhibits faith?

Then, one of the greatests myths of all time is this so-called age of accountability. This makes a mockery of God and His sovereignty. If you want to count on redemption for children, you might consider it is God's choosing, and it does not require an act on the part of the child.

So basically a different dispensation of salvation for infants as opposed to adults. That's a false gospel.
God Himself stated this "myth" (which by definition does not necessarily mean false) in Genesis 8:21, not to mention the age of accountability for entering the promised land for the Israelites.

 

[Amy.G]

You claim Paul said 'have sinned' because he was speaking about the adults. Can you present to me which sins all adults had committed using Scripture? Which sins?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[Luke2427]

Bro Iconoclast brought up the assumption that we are born spiritually dead, whereas I believe we are born alive unto Christ, but AFTER sin is conceived in the heart, then we are in need of the "Saving Grace of God".

Here is why I believe this the way I do:

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Looks like here Apostle Paul states that he was "alive" once, but sin slew him. If he was already dead, what can "slay" a dead thing?

Here is the Strong's definition of the word used for "slew" in verse 11:

apokteinō
1) to kill in any way whatever

a) to destroy, to allow to perish

2) metaph. to extinguish, abolish

a) to inflict mortal death

b) to deprive of spiritual life and procure eternal misery in hell

So the word "slew" is accurate. So, explain to me, anyone, how can you "slew" a dead thing?

I won't go into Genesis Chapters 2 and 3 again in the other thread about "the Unregenerate man", because I think this along with Romans 7 shows that there is 'life" from birth, and then when "sin revives" in the heart, we die spiritually. So, BATTER UP!! Please keep this civil. We can makes our arguments peaceably, so let's show our CHRISTian love, even in our disagreements!! I love you ALL!! So, swing, batter, batter, swing!! :thumbs::thumbs:

i am I am's!!

Willis

Man is born spiritually dead. He is born of flesh and flesh is sinful and cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
We are born with a "body of sin" a "body of death".
The reason he must be born again is because he was born a sinner the first time.

The works of the flesh are adultery, fornication, etc...
This is what he who is born of the flesh will do.

 

[glfredrick]

Let's pose the question in a different light.

Taking a Pelagian/Arminian view, that the human person is responsible for coming to salvation in Christ, and also that that same person may "lose" their salvation depending on their (sinful) actions; is life with God truly "eternal"

If so, how?

For the very tenet of faith that stands above all else is that man must dictate the actions that lead to salvation and/or a fall from salvation.

Does that not make "eternal life" something other than eternal life and eliminate the promises of God throughout the Scriptures?

Put another way... Why would God allow a person to enter His eternal kingdom who might choose once again as did Adam (or Lucifer) to rebel against God? To me, that blows a hole in the human-centered arguments.

 

[psalms109:31]

Lose Salvation

Let's pose the question in a different light.

Taking a Pelagian/Arminian view, that the human person is responsible for coming to salvation in Christ, and also that that same person may "lose" their salvation depending on their (sinful) actions; is life with God truly "eternal"

If so, how?

For the very tenet of faith that stands above all else is that man must dictate the actions that lead to salvation and/or a fall from salvation.

Does that not make "eternal life" something other than eternal life and eliminate the promises of God throughout the Scriptures?

Put another way... Why would God allow a person to enter His eternal kingdom who might choose once again as did Adam (or Lucifer) to rebel against God? To me, that blows a hole in the human-centered arguments.

1 John 2:
Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[Some manuscripts and you know all things
] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

If any believe we can lose our salvation the truth is not in them. Anyone who has accepted the truth in thier heart very soul will not lose their salvation. But those doing it because it was good at the time, when the trials and tribulations come the truth will be choked out of them.

Now those one who trusted in Christ from their heart, Christ will never lose or will they ever leave Him. If we really know the truth in our hearts our very soul we can never go back to who we once was.

 

[Amy.G]

Man is born spiritually dead. He is born of flesh and flesh is sinful and cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
We are born with a "body of sin" a "body of death".
The reason he must be born again is because he was born a sinner the first time.

The works of the flesh are adultery, fornication, etc...
This is what he who is born of the flesh will do.

How can Jesus redeem that which never belonged to Him?

 

[webdog]

Let's pose the question in a different light.

Taking a Pelagian/Arminian view, that the human person is responsible for coming to salvation in Christ, and also that that same person may "lose" their salvation depending on their (sinful) actions; is life with God truly "eternal"

If so, how?

For the very tenet of faith that stands above all else is that man must dictate the actions that lead to salvation and/or a fall from salvation.

Does that not make "eternal life" something other than eternal life and eliminate the promises of God throughout the Scriptures?

Put another way... Why would God allow a person to enter His eternal kingdom who might choose once again as did Adam (or Lucifer) to rebel against God? To me, that blows a hole in the human-centered arguments.

You start off your question with a strawman that the pelagian view and arminian view on this matter are the same. You also falsely assume man (in your understanding of both views) is the one with the ultimate power in coming to God. You need to learn what both camps and those who fall into neither believe first. I am neither, and do not fall into either caricature you have presented. I also believe in the preservation of the saints. There is no hole blown in any argument, as nobody has argued that. We can choose to shoot someone to death, but cannot choose to undo the act once it's done. Same principle applies in salvation, once we are born again, that's it...it's a finality.

 

[Amy.G]

I've asked this question a few times now, but still haven't received a response. Can one of my Calvinist buddies answer this?

How can Jesus redeem that which never belonged to Him?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I've asked this question a few times now, but still haven't received a response. Can one of my Calvinist buddies answer this?

What Jesus redeems is the soul. The soul was created by Him... all things were.

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Christ had to die on the cross to pay man's sin debt, redeeming the lost soul with His precious blood.

 

[Amy.G]

What Jesus redeems is the soul. The soul was created by Him... all things were.

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Christ had to die on the cross to pay man's sin debt, redeeming the lost soul with His precious blood.

According to many on this board, we are born spiritually dead, meaning spiritually separated from God and bound for hell. So tell me, when did the soul belong to God if it is doomed at birth?

Are you saying that God created a dead soul?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

According to many on this board, we are born spiritually dead, meaning spiritually separated from God and bound for hell. So tell me, when did the soul belong to God if it is doomed at birth?

Are you saying that God created a dead soul?

God created a living soul approximately 6,000 years ago. Adam sinned, as you know, bringing the curse of death upon all men. Adam's sin tainted the souls of all men.

 

[glfredrick]

I've asked this question a few times now, but still haven't received a response. Can one of my Calvinist buddies answer this?

You seem to think that you've found some question that a Calvinist could not answer. The reason that you are not getting much response to your question is that it is, in a sense, similar to asking how one might create a round square. In other words, the basic premise of the question mixes two propositional statements, then says "Ha!" when no one can make sense of it. But, there is an answer and the answer comes directly from the Scriptures and it is:

The same way a slave owner can redeem a slave and set that slave free.

The price of manumission was met by a free man -- one who was not a slave to sin -- Jesus Christ.

In the case of a spiritually dead person, the cost for sin is a life. The payment for that sin is a life -- the life of Jesus.

Had Jesus been merely (only) a man, He would have been able to give His life for one. As infinite God, He was able to give His life for many. If Jesus was merely (only) God, He would not be able to give His life for any, for the penalty of sin requires a man to die. Born as a man, He was able to give His life as a ransom.

Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Note that the "Ransom Theory" is not the only view of the atonement of Christ. It is but one way of viewing (in the same sort of nature as the blind men and the elephant -- which ever part of the elephant they inspected, they drew inferences as to what an elephant actually was) the atonement.

 

[Amy.G]

God created a living soul approximately 6,000 years ago. Adam sinned, as you know, bringing the curse of death upon all men. Adam's sin tainted the souls of all men.

Yes I know that. But were you born physically with a dead spirit? If so, how could Christ redeem that which never belonged to Him?

 

[Amy.G]

You seem to think that you've found some question that a Calvinist could not answer. The reason that you are not getting much response to your question is that it is, in a sense, similar to asking how one might create a round square.

I have found a question that Calvinists can't answer and still maintain their "born dead" position. That is exactly why I'm not getting responses.

Christ can only redeem something that once belonged to Him. That is what the word "redeem" means. It is to "buy back".

 

[Jim1999]

The word redeem in scripture,,,and the Oxford English dictionary,,, means to "deliver from sin and damnation.......to save or rescue or reclaim........

It fits just fine with calvinism. Redeem is a Latin word, not Greek or Hebrew.

What you are suggesting is that man was saved upon birth, then fell, and must be re-deemed. That's takes far more explanation than does the biblical doctrine of original sin inherited in Adam.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Amy.G]

The word redeem in scripture,,,and the Oxford English dictionary,,, means to "deliver from sin and damnation.......to save or rescue or reclaim........

It fits just fine with calvinism. Redeem is a Latin word, not Greek or Hebrew.

What you are suggesting is that man was saved upon birth, then fell, and must be re-deemed. That's takes far more explanation than does the biblical doctrine of original sin inherited in Adam.

Cheers,

Jim

I'm not saying that at all. Babies aren't born "saved". They are born not guilty.


Thanks for admitting that redeemed means to reclaim.