Exactly. You made my point. Israel was elect as a nation, and the restrictions dealt with participation in the privileges of an elect nation. Election to salvation is different.
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Are words of life meant for only those already living?
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
You are thinking in terms of chronological order which is a bad method. Think of the text in the logical order. One must be born into a family before he is a part of the family. This is way more simple than you are making it.
I have always maintained that it is a factor. You know that. What is a violation of John 1 was your implication that man's will was somehow superior to God's will. It is God's will that determines who is saved and who is not. Man's will is subject to that. I was speaking of ultimate determination.
Yes, it is factor, according to Scripture. Apart from God's effectual call, man will always reject God and pursue himself. When God effectually calls a man to salvation, he will respond.
But you cannot say that you agree with the latter. If you did, you would be a Calvinist, and you have said enough here to make it clear that you do not agree with that. I think it shows how you apply different meanings to things to try to play both side of hte fence.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Exactly. You made my point. Israel was elect as a nation, and the restrictions dealt with participation in the privileges of an elect nation. Election to salvation is different. </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus told us to "Proselytize the nations", making disciples. Proselytizing is the method of causing those "of the world" who will believe, into becoming God's elect in Salvation!
Not really ... He told us to make disciples of all nations, something he didn't tell the OT nation to do. But making disciples doesn't "cause" those of the world to believe. God takes care of that with the regeneration of hte will. Lastly and more importantly, you have yet to offer any biblical support for believing turning someone into one of God's elect. Will you finally shows us from Scripture that belief results in election?
Wes Outwest
New Member
OK! John 3:16
When you understand that one we'll go to the next one which is John 3:18.
That sums up pretty well who is God's elect!
When you understand that one we'll go to the next one which is John 3:18.
That sums up pretty well who is God's elect!
What part of John 3:16 or 18 tells us that belief results in election? Or are you adding to Scripture again??
Don't get confused here. I am asking about the causal relationship between belief and election. You say that belief causes election. I am asking you to support that from Scripture. Since John 3:16 or 18 don't talk about election, you failed on your first attempt.
Coincidentally, Ray tried the exact same verse on his first try. When I pointed out to him that election was not discussed there, he never again that I remember offered any biblical support for his doctrine. Perhaps you won't be so timid.
Don't get confused here. I am asking about the causal relationship between belief and election. You say that belief causes election. I am asking you to support that from Scripture. Since John 3:16 or 18 don't talk about election, you failed on your first attempt.
Coincidentally, Ray tried the exact same verse on his first try. When I pointed out to him that election was not discussed there, he never again that I remember offered any biblical support for his doctrine. Perhaps you won't be so timid.
Wes Outwest
New Member
What is it that jesus died for? He died to remove the BLOCK to man having everlasting life...the penalty of sinning which God himself levied against sin, and that is death. No, not simple death of flesh, but death from existance which is death of spirit or "the second death".
It is not the Atonement for sin that brings everlasting life, why not? Because Jesus said it is belief in HIM that results in everlasting life. The atonement just made it possible to have everlasting life by removing the penalty from mankind...All mankind because the penalty for sin is what was paid, and that was not done on an individual basis, but on a totality basis!
Belief in Jesus "ELECTS" the believer to salvation! AND, Jesus said that "whosoever believeth...? NO limitations, just simple belief in Jesus Elects the believer to everlasting life.
BUT he did not stop there, Jesus went further and stated that ALL who believe are not judged, they don't condemn themselves, there is no self recrimination! But for those who do not believe, it is their lack of belief by which they are judged!
Just so you are clear on this, it is the person that we are addressing here, not the person's deeds. The penalty for doing sins (deeds) rested on the person, but Jesus removed that penalty from the person putting it ALL on himself. I said that to show that in Revelation 20 it is the deeds of every person that are judged, but that judgment of deeds is not what one is cast into the lake of fire, the second death, for! The person whose name is not found in the Book of life is cast into the lake of fire. Deeds do not get our name written in the book of Life, FAITH does. So true to Jesus words, the one who believes in Him is not judged, while the others who do not believe, condemned themselves to the second death.
Therefore, one becomes an ELECT of God by believing in GOD the SON!
It is not the Atonement for sin that brings everlasting life, why not? Because Jesus said it is belief in HIM that results in everlasting life. The atonement just made it possible to have everlasting life by removing the penalty from mankind...All mankind because the penalty for sin is what was paid, and that was not done on an individual basis, but on a totality basis!
Belief in Jesus "ELECTS" the believer to salvation! AND, Jesus said that "whosoever believeth...? NO limitations, just simple belief in Jesus Elects the believer to everlasting life.
BUT he did not stop there, Jesus went further and stated that ALL who believe are not judged, they don't condemn themselves, there is no self recrimination! But for those who do not believe, it is their lack of belief by which they are judged!
Just so you are clear on this, it is the person that we are addressing here, not the person's deeds. The penalty for doing sins (deeds) rested on the person, but Jesus removed that penalty from the person putting it ALL on himself. I said that to show that in Revelation 20 it is the deeds of every person that are judged, but that judgment of deeds is not what one is cast into the lake of fire, the second death, for! The person whose name is not found in the Book of life is cast into the lake of fire. Deeds do not get our name written in the book of Life, FAITH does. So true to Jesus words, the one who believes in Him is not judged, while the others who do not believe, condemned themselves to the second death.
Therefore, one becomes an ELECT of God by believing in GOD the SON!
So go ahead and tell us where Scripture says this? Why is that so hard for you? Just give us some evidence from Scripture.
Wes Outwest
New Member
John 3:16 supported by John 3:18.
Those are still part of your bible aren't they? Just in case, here they are in the KJV
Now if you also include Jesus' Prayer just before submitting to be tried convicted and hung, John 17:1-26, you will see that Jesus prayed for God's elect that were "given to Jesus" in verse 9, and that in verse 20, Jesus prays for those who are "of the world" that will be saved through the teaching of Jesus' "elect that were given to him by the Father". We are they who are saved to "election and eternal life" through the teaching of those who were "given to" Jesus.
Finally Revelation 20:14,15 Those whose names were not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. But according to John 3:18, those who believe in Him, are not judged, but did indeed pass from death into life eternal! Those who pass from death to life "got elected" to everlasting life with Jesus! The difference is they were SANCTIFIED by their FAITH in Jesus! While those lacking such faith were cast into the lake of fire.
Of course one could say that those who are cast into the lake of fire were also elected to that fate because both fates were explained in one verse by Jesus...John 3:18!
Those are still part of your bible aren't they? Just in case, here they are in the KJV
I threw in the bonus of verse 17 because it is integral to the understanding of "whosoever" in verse 16.
Now if you also include Jesus' Prayer just before submitting to be tried convicted and hung, John 17:1-26, you will see that Jesus prayed for God's elect that were "given to Jesus" in verse 9, and that in verse 20, Jesus prays for those who are "of the world" that will be saved through the teaching of Jesus' "elect that were given to him by the Father". We are they who are saved to "election and eternal life" through the teaching of those who were "given to" Jesus.
Finally Revelation 20:14,15 Those whose names were not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. But according to John 3:18, those who believe in Him, are not judged, but did indeed pass from death into life eternal! Those who pass from death to life "got elected" to everlasting life with Jesus! The difference is they were SANCTIFIED by their FAITH in Jesus! While those lacking such faith were cast into the lake of fire.
Of course one could say that those who are cast into the lake of fire were also elected to that fate because both fates were explained in one verse by Jesus...John 3:18!
WEs,
YOu are getting distracted and off topic here. I am asking you to use Scripture to support your position that belief leads to election. So far, you have offered nothing in support of that. Will you please offer support?
YOu are getting distracted and off topic here. I am asking you to use Scripture to support your position that belief leads to election. So far, you have offered nothing in support of that. Will you please offer support?
Wes Outwest
New Member
No Larry,
You are just not interested in the scriptures I have provided because they refute YOUR understanding, and you refuse to accept anything that does that!
You are just not interested in the scriptures I have provided because they refute YOUR understanding, and you refuse to accept anything that does that!
Wes,
John 3 does not talk about election. Therefore, it is irrelevant to this discussion. You have said that belief results in election. As proof, you appeal to a verse that doesn't even talk about election.
Then you accuse me of refusing to accept something taht refutes my understanding when you provide a verse that doesn't even address the topic.
GET THIS: I am asking about election and belief. Verses that do not address election are not acceptable evidence for a position about what causes what. Since John 3:16 does not address the relationship between election and belief, it is not evidence that refutes my understanding.
Now, post evidence that supports your position, or admit that you can't. Which will you do?
John 3 does not talk about election. Therefore, it is irrelevant to this discussion. You have said that belief results in election. As proof, you appeal to a verse that doesn't even talk about election.
Then you accuse me of refusing to accept something taht refutes my understanding when you provide a verse that doesn't even address the topic.
GET THIS: I am asking about election and belief. Verses that do not address election are not acceptable evidence for a position about what causes what. Since John 3:16 does not address the relationship between election and belief, it is not evidence that refutes my understanding.
Now, post evidence that supports your position, or admit that you can't. Which will you do?
Wes Outwest
New Member
Look Larry,
Jesus said that whosoever believes in HIM, has everlasting life! (everlasting life is interpreted as Salvation) That is election through belief!
Look at how Calvinists explain election! It is the elect who are saved! If Jesus says whosoever can be saved through faith, then whosoever becomes an ELECT through faith!
How much clearer does it have to be before the lightbulb illuminates in your brain?
Jesus said that whosoever believes in HIM, has everlasting life! (everlasting life is interpreted as Salvation) That is election through belief!
Look at how Calvinists explain election! It is the elect who are saved! If Jesus says whosoever can be saved through faith, then whosoever becomes an ELECT through faith!
How much clearer does it have to be before the lightbulb illuminates in your brain?
How can you possibly not see that election is not mentioned in John 3:16. I agree absolutely that those who believe have salvation/everlasting life. That is not the point. The point is this: Does election come before belief, or after? You say election comes after belief. Yet you will not provide even one iota of biblical support for that. Why?
By contrast, look at 1 Tim 2:10 where Paul says he endures all things for the sake of the elect so that they might be saved. There, election clearly precedes belief to salvation. Look at 2 Thess 2:13 where God chose from the beginnnig for salvation through belief. Notice that here we have election, salvation, and belief. But in what order? God chose you to salvation, which comes through belief.
You see, Scripture supports the position I hold. So far, you have given no evidence to support your position.
Why do you think these things contradict? That shows how much you misunderstand. Both are true. The elect are saved. How? By believing? Who believes? Whosoever will. Who will? The elect.
Your "lightbulb" has no biblical support so far. You have not offered even one piece of biblical evidence. You are showing us that you have none. You are backed up against a wall and your only recourse is to claim that I am dim. But the fact is that you have no evidence.
Wes Outwest
New Member
1 Tim 2:9 Similarly, women are to wear suitable clothes and to be dressed quietly and modestly, without braided hair or gold and jewellery or expensive clothes;
1 Tim 2:10 their adornment is to do the good works that are proper for women who claim to be religious.</font>[/QUOTE]That's some support for election!
Wes Outwest
New Member
In context, Paul, in verse 14 says it is through the Gospel that God called you. Well what is different there? It is through the Gospel that we all are called, so we must all be the elect! We have been called through our believing what God's word tells us about His only begotten son! We are the elect through faith in God!
Wes Outwest
New Member
No larry, Your personal courtroom refuses the evidence presented! That is not the same as having none to present! I have given you plenty and you refuse it!
My bad ... 2 Tim 2:10. As well as you pretend to know election, shouldn't you have already known that passage?
That was almost an argument, but look how badly you missed it. First, Calvinist believe that God calls people through the gospel. THat is the whole point. Second, you made a huge and illegitimate jump from "through the gospel we all are called" to "so we must all be the elect." In the context, Paul is writing to believers, and yes, they were all elect because they had all been called. But then make a flat out wrong statement that is contradicted by the verse I quoted. When they heard the gospel, they believed because they were chosen from the beginning. You say that we are elect through faith in God. Yet the verse says that God chose us from the beginning for salvation throguh faith. In other words, according to God, election precedes faith. According to Wes, faith precedes election. Who should we follow there?
And so your attempt at explaining away the truth of God's word fails by virtue of the verses you tried to explain. They prove your wrong.
And you still have yet to present one verse that addresses the connection between election and belief. Why?
Wes Outwest
New Member
For by grace are ye "savedthroughfaith", and not of yourselves this being "saved" is a gift of God, not because of any works that we do.
Seems to me Larry that you are overlooking the simple truth that "savedthroughfaith" is God's plan from the beginning, and not the establishing of "who is "savedthroughfaith"".
God made it so that ANY out of ALL who come through hearing his word unto faith are elected, by God, for Salvation. He established from before the foundation of the world that He would provide the sacrificial lamb for the atonement of sin, so that whosoever believeth can be saved through faith, just like Paul says! The whole plan of Salvation existed before the foundation of the world. The problem in that equation is that unless you believe as the Mormon's do that we are the spirit children of God and his harem of wives, and that we were sent to occupy human flesh to prove ourselves worthy and to become God's ourselves, we did not exist when the plan was made. So God left it open ended so that whosoever believeth receives everlasting life.
That leads me to conclude that you believe what the Mormon's do, that we are the "spirit children of God", each of us born of a different one of God's many wives. And that when we are sent to earth to occupy human flesh that our names are written in the book of life so that we can be recycled when our flesh body dies!
No, I don't think so, but your doctrine of elections surely smaks of such.
Seems to me Larry that you are overlooking the simple truth that "savedthroughfaith" is God's plan from the beginning, and not the establishing of "who is "savedthroughfaith"".
God made it so that ANY out of ALL who come through hearing his word unto faith are elected, by God, for Salvation. He established from before the foundation of the world that He would provide the sacrificial lamb for the atonement of sin, so that whosoever believeth can be saved through faith, just like Paul says! The whole plan of Salvation existed before the foundation of the world. The problem in that equation is that unless you believe as the Mormon's do that we are the spirit children of God and his harem of wives, and that we were sent to occupy human flesh to prove ourselves worthy and to become God's ourselves, we did not exist when the plan was made. So God left it open ended so that whosoever believeth receives everlasting life.
That leads me to conclude that you believe what the Mormon's do, that we are the "spirit children of God", each of us born of a different one of God's many wives. And that when we are sent to earth to occupy human flesh that our names are written in the book of life so that we can be recycled when our flesh body dies!
No, I don't think so, but your doctrine of elections surely smaks of such.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
You are thinking in terms of chronological order which is a bad method.</font>[/QUOTE] You mean I'm thinking normally. I need to think like a Calvinist, right?
You are the one complicating the issue. One can't be born into the family before he is even given the right to become a family member. What is so difficult about that Larry? It says "given the right to BECOME a child." You don't BECOME a child and then get the right to BECOME a child, that is non-sense Larry and you know it.
What implication? I merely claimed it was a determining factor in salvation, which in my view is the way God willed it to be, so how in the world is that making man's will superior to God's? You know you contradicted yourself and now you just won't admit it.
Yes, I agree. It is God's will that makes that determination and I believe God has determined to allow man's will to be a factor in whether or not he will be reconciled to God and thus men are held into account for their response to that message of reconcilation.
You say its a violation to claim man's will is a factor and then you say it is a factor but its really not because God is the only factor....pick a position Larry. Man's will is not a factor in your position, not really. Its only a fruit, not a factor, and you know as well as I do that creates a real problem when it comes to accountability so you use verbage that tries to maintain that men's will is a factor but it fools no one.
Boy is that not a case of the pot and the kettle?
Since when do Arminians not hold to the belief that God initiates salvation?