Are words of life meant for only those already living?

[Pastor Larry]

Seems to me Larry that you are overlooking the simple truth that "savedthroughfaith" is God's plan from the beginning, and not the establishing of "who is "savedthroughfaith"".

No, we have repeatedly told you that Calvinists fully affirm that we are saved by faith. YOu know that.

God made it so that ANY out of ALL who come through hearing his word unto faith are elected, by God, for Salvation.

And where exactly did God say this? Where did God say that those who exercise faith become elected at that point? That is the crux of this matter and you absolutely refuse to show us this. Why?

The problem in that equation is that unless you believe as the Mormon's do that we are the spirit children of God and his harem of wives, and that we were sent to occupy human flesh to prove ourselves worthy and to become God's ourselves, we did not exist when the plan was made. So God left it open ended so that whosoever believeth receives everlasting life.

The Bible teaches that God knew all of our days when there was not yet one of them. God is not finding stuff out along the way. He knew it all from eternity past. The Bible teaches that God elected us to salvation from before the foundation of the world. Therefore, that is before anyone exercised faith, and it shows that your position is wrong.

 

[Wes Outwest]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Seems to me Larry that you are overlooking the simple truth that "savedthroughfaith" is God's plan from the beginning, and not the establishing of "who is "savedthroughfaith"".

No, we have repeatedly told you that Calvinists fully affirm that we are saved by faith. YOu know that.</font>[/QUOTE]However you believe that your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world, and that you have no choice in the matter of belief! Only that you will believe! Your doctrine of irresistible grace is evidence of that!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God made it so that ANY out of ALL who come through hearing his word unto faith are elected, by God, for Salvation.

And where exactly did God say this? Where did God say that those who exercise faith become elected at that point? That is the crux of this matter and you absolutely refuse to show us this. Why?</font>[/QUOTE]God's word says that we are saved through faith. If we are saved at all that makes us ELECT! Since we are saved through faith, we are elect through faith. I really hope you are not so ignorant of truth that you don't know that.

The problem in that equation is that unless you believe as the Mormon's do that we are the spirit children of God and his harem of wives, and that we were sent to occupy human flesh to prove ourselves worthy and to become God's ourselves, we did not exist when the plan was made. So God left it open ended so that whosoever believeth receives everlasting life.

The Bible teaches that God knew all of our days when there was not yet one of them. God is not finding stuff out along the way. He knew it all from eternity past. The Bible teaches that God elected us to salvation from before the foundation of the world. Therefore, that is before anyone exercised faith, and it shows that your position is wrong.

Your opinion is your opinion. You have offered nothing that supports your statement, "that all believers who ever become believers were elected before the foundation of the world."

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
However you believe that your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world, and that you have no choice in the matter of belief! Only that you will believe! Your doctrine of irresistible grace is evidence of that!

Once again, you show yourself as one who misrepresents your opponent. We do have a choice in the matter. Because we are elect, we will choose to follow Christ in faith for salvation. The non-elect will choose not to follow him in faith. It is that simple. Stop making up your own opponents.

God's word says that we are saved through faith.

Yes.

If we are saved at all that makes us ELECT!

No.

Since we are saved through faith, we are elect through faith.

No.

I really hope you are not so ignorant of truth that you don't know that.

I am not the one ignorant. Notice that you provided no Scripture in support of yourself again. You must hate the Scriptures to not use them as much as you don't use them. If we are elect through faith, then the Bible should teach that. But you won't show us where.

The truth is that we exercise faith for salvation because we are elect. That is what the Bible teaches and I have shown you that from the Bible.

You have offered nothing that supports your statement, "that all believers who ever become believers were elected before the foundation of the world."

Yes, I have: Eph 1; 2 Thess 2:13; 2 Tim 2:10; and a host of other passages that clearly teach the doctrine of election.

Do not misrepresent your opponents. You don't have to agree with us, but do not make stuff up about their position. You have been clearly told what we believe, yet you have continued to misrepresent it. That is unacceptable. Cease immediately.

 

[Wes Outwest]

I posted this elsewhere but it is just as appropriate here

DICTIONARY ENTRIES
elect
v. : elected, electing, elects
v.tr. :To select by vote for an office or for membership.
To pick out; select:elect an art course.
To decide, especially by preference:elected to take the summer off.
To select by divine will for salvation.Used of God.
v.intr.: To make a choice or selection.

adj.: Chosen deliberately; singled out.
Elected but not yet installed. Often used in combination: the governor-elect.
Chosen for marriage.Often used in combination: the bride-elect.
Selected by divine will for salvation.

n. : One that is chosen or selected.
One selected by divine will for salvation.(used with apl.verb) An "exclusive" group of people. Used with "the"ne of the elect who have power inside the government.

THESAURUS ENTRIES:

election, noun
Definition: choosing
Synonyms: acclamation, advance poll, alternative, appointment, ballot, balloting, by-election, choice, decision, determination, franchise, judgment, option, poll, polls, preference, primary, referendum, selection, ticket, vote, vote-casting, voting

selection, noun
Definitiion: preference
Synonyms: alternative, choice, choosing, collection, culling, draft, druthers, election, excerpt, option, pick, picking

appointment, noun
Definition: responsibility
Synonyms: allotment, approval, assigning, authorization, certification, choice, choosing, commissioning, delegation, deputation, designation, election, empowering, installation, naming, nomination, ordination, promotion, selection

choice, noun
Definition: selection
Synonyms: alternative, appraisal, bag, choosing, cull, decision, determination, discretion, discrimination, distinction, druthers, election, evaluation, extract, favorite, finding, free will, judgment, opportunity, option, pick, preference, rating, say, substitute, variety, verdict, volition, vote, weakness

nomination, noun
Definition: appointment
Synonyms: choice, designation, election, naming, proposal, recommendation, selection, suggestion

option, noun
Definition: alternative
Synonyms: advantage, benefit, choice, claim, dibs, dilemma, discretion, druthers, election, flipside, franchise, free will, grant, license, opportunity, pickup, preference, prerogative, privilege, right, security, selection, title

preference, noun
Definition: choice
Synonyms: alternative, bag, choice, desire, druthers, election, favorite, flash, groove, inclination, option, partiality, pick, predilection, prepossession, propensity, say, say so, selection, top, weakness

volition, noun
Definition: free will
Synonyms: accord, choice, choosing, conation, desire, determination, discretion, election, option, preference, purpose, resolution, selection, will, willingness, wish

It seems to me that in accordance with the variety of definitions of "elect" that one who chooses to have faith in God, is just as elect to salvation as one whom God chose! It is, after all, God's will that none should perish! He made it possible for "whosoever believeth" to have everlasting life, which is a form of election!

If God established that FAITH in His Son is what is required for Salvation, then any and everyone who has such faith is elected to salvation!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Did you think that God used an English dictionary and thesaurus when he wrote Scripture? If not, then why post it? If so, then go get a book on bibliology and study it closely.

Also notice how your post is bare of any Scripture to support it. Aren't you grasping the reason why you don't post Scripture to support your belief? It is because you don't have any. The Bible teaches no such thing. And quoting English dictionaries won't change that.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
You have offered nothing that supports your statement, "that all believers who ever become believers were elected before the foundation of the world."

Scripture doesn't say that. In fact, 1 Cor 15 says the following:

"Since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

If, by the elect, we refer to God knowing from the beginning of time who would be saved and not saved, then that's fine. But if we refer to the elect as to those whom God decided from the beginning of time who would be saved and not saved, then we have a problem with this verse, not to mention other verses that contradict this thought.

 

[Southern]

John V.,
That is exactly what the scriptures teach (John 6:37;Acts 13:48;2 Thess. 2:13;Rom. 8:29;John 10:16,26-27).

By your quote of 1 Cor. 15 I assume that you are a universalist and believe that everyone is going to be saved since it said "shall all be made alive." This leaves you with the problem of dodging the verses that speak of everlasting torment.

In Christ

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Did you think that God used an English dictionary and thesaurus when he wrote Scripture? If not, then why post it? If so, then go get a book on bibliology and study it closely.

Also notice how your post is bare of any Scripture to support it. Aren't you grasping the reason why you don't post Scripture to support your belief? It is because you don't have any. The Bible teaches no such thing. And quoting English dictionaries won't change that.

NO, Larry God don't use the english language dictionary. Like so many things of man, God doesn't need it, but we do. God doesn't need nor does he have FAITH, but we do!

Larry, I have no problem with NOT POSTING SCRIPTURE, I know enough of scripture, and of humanity to understand how God puts them together. WHY DON'T YOU? Are you afraid of your humanity? If yes, why are you? Did God not make you in HIS image? Does God not look upon you with Love in his heart for you? How then can you think less of yourself than God does of you?

If you are doing the work of the FATHER, which is your believing in His son, do you not think the father sees that and appreciates your faith?

Did God not give to all of us HIS only begotten son, while we were yet sinners! Yet it seems you keep reiterating that we are not worth anything to God and that we have no ability to respond to God.

We are man, God's crowning achievement, and God loves us. He saw that we were bound to death because of sin, and he sent his Son, to pay the penalty of sin, and thus set us free from death so that we could have through faith in His son, everlasting life. What a wonderful Father He is to release His beloved Son to take our place. Now that we are free from death, we through our faith, are the children of God. That is Election!

The only difference between us who have everlasting life and those that don't is our personal, individual, unique faith in God the Son.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Southern:
I assume that you are a universalist and believe that everyone is going to be saved since it said "shall all be made alive.

You assume incorrectly, and in your attempt to do so, completely disregard the verse I posted. Clearly, Christ came for all, not for some, just as original sin came to all, and not to some. But God also knew that not all will choose him. God knew from the beginning who would and would not choose life in Christ. This is consistent with Calvinistic thought, and consistent with scripture.

Hypercalvinism is another form of liberalism, similar to the unscriptural liberalism of KJVOism. Scripture DOES NOT teach us that God decided to condemn a certain segment of the population prior to them being conceived. That is the result of the hypercalvinist movement taking specific bible verses out of the whole scriptural context and twisting them to fit their manmade agenda.

 

[Southern]

John,
This verse says that all "shall" be made alive. Their is no potential here as you seem to imply.

In Christ

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
NO, Larry God don't use the english language dictionary.

You, for some inexplicable reason, posted a long definition of "elect" in English. But that doesn't matter. What you need is the biblical definition of election, not an English definition.

Larry, I have no problem with NOT POSTING SCRIPTURE,

You are not posting enough Scripture and interacting with it. You keep offering your own opinion and when I ask you for Scripture to support it, you refuse.

I know enough of scripture, and of humanity to understand how God puts them together.

Apparently not, since you are misusing the very little you do post.

Are you afraid of your humanity? If yes, why are you? Did God not make you in HIS image? Does God not look upon you with Love in his heart for you? How then can you think less of yourself than God does of you?

Where in the world did this come from? It is totally irrelevant to anythign here. For the record, the problem with man is not too low a view of himself; it is too high. When God looks at us he sees nothing but sinfulness and rebellion against him. Few people have that biblical of a view of themselves. But since that is not the topic here, we won't discusss it here.

Now that we are free from death, we through our faith, are the children of God. That is Election!

That's not election. It isn't in your English definition and it certainly isn't the biblical definition. Election is this: God chose individuals to salvation from before the foundation of the world without any consideration of personal merit.

But again, you have failed to support your postion with Scripture. Why am I not surprised ...

 

[Wes Outwest]

You, for some inexplicable reason, posted a long definition of "elect" in English. But that doesn't matter. What you need is the biblical definition of election, not an English definition.

SO POST THAT BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF ELECTION SO THAT WE ALL CAN KNOW IT!

 

[Wes Outwest]

That's not election. It isn't in your English definition and it certainly isn't the biblical definition. Election is this: God chose individuals to salvation from before the foundation of the world without any consideration of personal merit.

But again, you have failed to support your postion with Scripture. Why am I not surprised ...

Did you even read the definitions posted? Go back and try again! You say "God Chose", that is among the options I posted.

So what then do you do with "who out of all will believe in the son of God shall have everlasting life".
What is Salvation if it is not John 3:16 and 18 and Revelation 20:14,15? Let me synopsize it.

Whosoever believes receives everlasting life (16)
Whoever believes is not judged (18)
Whoever's name is NOT found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire the second death, the death of human spirit and all EVIL! Rev 20:15

When is one's name written in the book of life? Was every name in the book written from the foundation of the world? OR are names written in the book of life for those who come to faith in God? Certainly scriptures reveal that one's name can be blotted from the book of life

[Rev 3:3] remember how you first heard the message. Hold on to that. Repent! If you do not wake up, I shall come to you like a thief, and you will have no idea at what hour I shall come upon you.
[Rev 3:4] There are a few in Sardis, it is true, who have kept their robes unstained, and they are fit to come with me, dressed in white.
[Rev 3:5] Anyone who proves victorious will be dressed, like these, in white robes; I shall not blot that name out of the book of life, but acknowledge it in the presence of my Father and his angels.

If names can be blotted out names can be written into. Verse 3 says to "Remember how you first heard!" Well, Faith cometh by hearing! So faith must by how one's name is written into the book of life.
Even Moses speaks of "the book"

[Exo 32:31] Moses then went back to Yahweh and said, `Oh, this people has committed a great sin by making themselves a god of gold.
[Exo 32:32] And yet, if it pleased you to forgive their sin. . .! If not, please blot me out of the book you have written!'
[Exo 32:33] Yahweh said to Moses, `Those who have sinned against me are the ones I shall blot out of my book.

To which God replied those who have sinned against me are the ones I shall blot out of my book. Now I don't know about you, but that tells me that all mankind is written into the book of life, thus all mankind are "the elect" and only those who sin against God are blotted from the book. The work of God is that we, all mankind, believe in God the Son, and He does in truth command such. So our sin against God is that we disobey Him by not believing in His Son.

So Larry,
WHO ARE THE ELECT? (scriptures reveal many of them)

WHEN ARE NAMES WRITTEN INTO THE BOOK OF LIFE?

WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET ONE'S NAME BLOTTED FROM THE BOOK?

 

[GeneMBridges]

Whosoever believes receives everlasting life

Yes, all the believing ones have eternal life. This does not support the "whosoever will" fallacy that says that all people have the moral ability to accept Christ.

Whoever believes is not judged

Absolutely. All the elect believe. Justification is conditional upon faith. Election is not justification. You contend that election is because of justification. Unfortunately for you Scripture says justification is not election and that justification is dependent upon election. (Romans 8:29, 30, John 6:37, 44, 45, 65). However, this statement in John is not conditional it is indicative. It simply says that the believing one is not judged. It does not say they are not judged because they believe, though Calvinists agree with that. Election is NOT justification.

Whoever's name is NOT found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire the second death, the death of human spirit and all EVIL! Rev 20:15

.

Absolutely, no Calvinist states otherwise.

Certainly scriptures reveal that one's name can be blotted from the book of life

(Which contradicts all variations of the doctrine of eternal security, which you say you believe. If they can be blotted out, they can be blotted out AFTER a person believes as well, can they not?)

No, it does not say that. It simply says that Jesus will not blot out a person's name from the book of life. Rev. 3:5 is not a conditional statement, it is an indicative statement. However, since justification itself is temporal and not eternal, then it could be that a person's name is written into the Book of Life when he is justified. This, of course, might make God subject to time itself, and that is the heresy of Open Theism if believed from an Arminian stance.

If names can be blotted out names can be written into.

Fallacy of limited alternatives. It could also be that names written in are simply there permanently for some other reason not related to the process you describe. This would also mean that persons can lose and regain their salvation multiple times.

Was every name in the book written from the foundation of the world?

Good question. Scripture does not seem to say, so that means your conclusions here are conjectural.

OR are names written in the book of life for those who come to faith in God?

Since the names so written are all believers, then that is a logical conclusion. However, that does not mean they are written there because they believe and when they believe. Election is in the mind of God from eternity past, justification is in the temporal realm, so even if the names are written in temporal fashion, this does not in any way harm the doctrine of unconditional election. This seems to have something to do with the final judgment, so either is a possibility. However, neither support your position without reading it into the text from your tradition, not the exegesis of the passage itself and ultimately would lead to a rejection of both perseverance of the saints and its doctrinal cousin, eternal security.

So faith must by how one's name is written into the book of life.

Or God may write the names there based on His decree of election and promise not to blot them out because He will preserve all those that believe in such a way that they never apostacize.

Now I don't know about you, but that tells me that all mankind is written into the book of life,

We agree, it tells you that, not us. Your idea leads directly to universalism. It tells universalists that as well.

thus all mankind are "the elect" and only those who sin against God are blotted from the book.

Which contradicts the doctrine that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God in Romans 3 and contradicts Scripture that God justifies ALL that He foreknows and predestines, according to Romans 8:29, 30 and Jesus raises up all that are given, come, are drawn, and believe as a result (John 6).

only those who sin against God are blotted from the book.

You contradict your own belief system then, because this requires that unbelief is a sin. However, you believe that Jesus died for ALL sins. If he died for all sins, and they are all paid for that means, according your very same logic that Jesus really did NOT pay for all man's sins. Even if the sin is disobedience, it is STILL a sin, and thus Jesus still did not pay for all man's sins, which you seek to uphold.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Southern:
This verse says that all "shall" be made alive. Their is no potential here as you seem to imply.

I didn't imply any potential. You're reading something into my post that I didn't even address. I was addressing the fact that life in Christ is intended for "all" (though not accepted by all), contrary to the liberal hypercalvinist thought.

 

[GeneMBridges]

You're confusing hyperCalvinism and traditional Calvinism grossly. HyperCalvinism affirms equal ultimacy. Traditional Calvinism does not affirm equal ultimacy.

Let's look at the passage you cited.

Romans 5:18

"So, as through one offense, there resulted condemnation to all men, so also, through one righteous deed, there resulted justification of life to all men."

The literal, word for word, translation of Romans 5:18 is:

so therefore as through one offense into all men into condemnation, so also through one righteous deed into all men into justification of life"

So, therefore, as through one offense, into all men into condemnation,

so, also, through one righteous deed, into all men into justification of life.

Because there is no verb in this verse (it is not unusual in Greek for there to be no verb in a sentence), a verb must be borrowed or implied. Since there isn't a verb close enough in the previous verses to borrow and that would fit appropriately, one from the context must be derived. A smoothed out version would be:

So, as through one offense, there resulted condemnation to all men,

so also, through one righteous deed, there resulted justification of life to all men.

We know that inserting the words "there resulted" into the text is correct by simple logic. The offense of Adam resulted in condemnation to all men--no one disputes that. Adam represented all his people (everybody) in the garden. When he sinned, we fell with him. There was a result, an actual result to his sin: condemnation. It follows that "there resulted" should be in the second part of the sentence as well because the second part has the same syntax as the first and says "also." That is, Paul is implying a parallel between the actions of Adam and the actions of Jesus. Adam represented his people; Jesus represented His.

1) The structure of the first and the second parts of the verse are the same: adverb(s), preposition, noun, (verb place), noun, and object.

Paul is trying to make it clear in this verse that the deeds of the respective persons had definite results upon those whom they represented. That is why the verse is really two sentences of identical structure.

Adam's sin resulted in condemnation to all
Jesus' sacrifice resulted in justification to all

Where the first Adam brought condemnation to all, the second Adam (Jesus is called the second Adam in 1 Cor. 15:45) brought justification to all--that is what the text says, despite the apparent problem of "all people being justified."

Justification is being declared legally righteous before God. If someone is declared legally righteous before God, then he is saved. Only the saved are justified: "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him " (Rom. 5:9). Since the Scriptures clearly teach that not all men are saved (Matt 25:31-33), we know that the "all" in this verse can't refer to every individual. It must refer to something other than everyone who ever lived. I conclude that the "all" can only mean the Christians. God was so sure of His predestination that to Him, the elect are the "all" He wishes to save.

The NASB gives the best translation: "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

The NIV does not translate it as literally. It says, "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men." The NIV is right in adding the word "result." The NIV is an excellent translation but in this verse it sacrifices the literalness needed to draw out this aspect of biblical teaching.

Furthermore, if the verb phrase "that brings" is in the second part, it should then be in the first part of the verse because the verse is two identical thoughts. If that were done, then "that brings" would take on the meaning of result, because condemnation is exactly what resulted to all men when Adam sinned. Since the verse is in two identical parts, what is done to one should be done to the other. The NIV is not consistent in its translation at this point.

The KJV translates it thus: "Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." The words "free gift" are not in the Greek. The translators have drawn conclusions, though accurate ones, but I believe this too does injustice to the text by not letting it say what it says. Also, if the free gift simply came upon all people, then it does not mean that it resulted, and the apparent problem of all people being justified is taken care of. Unfortunately, that isn't what the Greek says.

I believe some translators of the Bible, when coming across this verse, realize the problem of saying the atonement resulted in justification to all men. They assume the "all" means every individual and then translate the scripture in light of their theology to allow harmony with their interpretations of the rest of the scriptures. I think that is a mistake. Translators should translate the text as accurately as possible, even if it conflicts with their theology.

In these three verses it is clear that God has used the word "all" differently than what would normally be expected. This is an indication that God has intended for the "all" to be saved, and they are. When God is thinking of the "all" He is thinking of a specific group. These three verses bare that out.

The "all" in reference to Christ are believers only, not all men. The issue is that the fall of "all" in Adam is considered actual.

If having life is potential, then "all" does refer to all men. However, if it is actual, as you affirm, it only refers to believers. Since the fall in Adam is actual, then it logically follows the life of those in Christ is also actual. However, if that all is universal, and actual, then that is true universalism. If it is actual and ineffective contingent on election that is contingent on belief itself (vs. justification that is conditional on faith, which Calvinism teaches), it is really potential, or else you affirm an oxymoron, e.g. an actual ineffective atonement.

 

[Southern]

John,

Where in this verse do you read of "intention"? It clearly says that all "shall" be made alive. This implies certainty.

This verse is simply comparing the union with Adam and His descendants to the union with Christ and His descendents:

As in Adam all die (all his descendents), even so in Christ (those who are Christ's descendents) all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. It talks about Christ and "those who are His".

There is a short discussion of this passage on the following site:
http://www.ccel.org/b/boettner/predest/22.htm

Conclusion- This verse compares those in union with Adam with those in union with Christ. As All in Adam die, so also shall all in Christ be made alive. The only logical conclusion in your view would be "universalism" if the all means each and every individual. Since your not a universalist, you are just left with a contradiction.

 

[Johnv]

I don't disagree with you on your conclusion. I do disagree if the claim is being made that this supports hypercalvinism. It does not, as the prior verse says "since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead". The two verses carry the implication that Christ came for all (although not all will receive him), just as all are subject to original sin.

 

[Southern]

John,
That is "not" implicated in the verse nor any other verse for that matter. That is your Arminian theology being read into the verse.

In Christ

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Southern:
That is "not" implicated in the verse nor any other verse for that matter. That is your Arminian theology being read into the verse.

I don't hold to Arminian theology. I simply don't hold to your liberal hypercalvinist theology.