Are You a Calvinist or a Non-Cal?

[Iconoclast]

Calvinist: Men don't want to come to Christ
Me: Why?

Calvinist: Because they don't want to.

Me: I understand that, but why don't they want to?
Calvinist: Because they are not willing.

Me: That is the same thing, I'm asking you why they are unwilling.

Calvinist: 11Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily,
therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

Me: Yes, we have established that point, I'm asking you WHY they are unwilling and don't want to come.

Calvinist: Stop playing word games. They are sinners and don't want to come.
.
Me: Why?


Calvinist: 5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually

Me: Why?

Calvinist: 5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Me: I understand that, but why don't they want to?

Calvinist: 3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies

Me: That is the same thing, I'm asking you why they are unwilling.

Calvinist: 9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Me: Yes, we have established that point, I'm asking you WHY they are unwilling and don't want to come.

Calvinist: 3This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
.
Me: Why?

Calvinist: 4Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Me: Why?

Calvinist: 6From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores:

Me: I understand that, but why don't they want to?

Calvinist: 8Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made

Me: That is the same thing, I'm asking you why they are unwilling.

Calvinist: 30Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.

Me: Yes, we have established that point, I'm asking you WHY they are unwilling and don't want to come.

Calvinist:22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
.
Me: Why?

Calvinist:3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Me:why?


Calvinist: Why not stop asking why, and read the bible correctly,and you can see the same things for yourself.:wavey::wavey:

 

[InTheLight]

Calvinist: Why not stop asking why, and read the bible correctly,and you can see the same things for yourself.:wavey::wavey:

The question is: Why is man totally depraved? Answer that one.

 

[Skandelon]

No, give me the Bible....

Oh come on. Now analogies aren't acceptable in a debate forum?

What do you mean by "contra-causually

"A choice to act is free if it is an expression of an agent's categorical ability of the will to refrain or not refrain from the action."

Its sometime referred to as "libertarian free will," or the ability to do otherwise. Yesterday a Christian man lied to his wife. Could he have willingly done otherwise? Could he have chosen not to lie given those exact circumstances?

So people have faith and grace and are not saved?

I mean, they were granted the ability to act in faith so as to receive grace. But even the gospel is a gracious provision.

but they don't....why?

Because that was their choice. They determined it.

Well, I've been asked this question and was mocked for not having an answer to why they didn't want to accept Christ.

Asking WHY a free agent does something is question begging because it assumes a deterministic answer is required. We believe the agent is FREE, not determined. He determines his choices FREELY. An actor determines his acts.

It's not that way in the Calvinistic system because according to Calvinism men are determined by their 'greatest desire' which is always in accordance with their nature and that is ultimately created by God.

 

[saturneptune]

Sorry, I am not a Calvinist. I cannot relate to burning someone at the stake because they disagree with me theologically, infant baptism, or being head of a city-state theocracy. However, I am a strong believer in Doctrines of Grace and Sovereignty.

 

[jbh28]

Sorry, I am not a Calvinist. I cannot relate to burning someone at the stake because they disagree with me theologically, infant baptism, or being head of a city-state theocracy. However, I am a strong believer in Doctrines of Grace and Sovereignty.

Well, I'll leave your historical errors alone and just say...amen!

 

[saturneptune]

Well, I'll leave your historical errors alone and just say...amen!

There have been threads ad nausem about the death of Michael Servetus. One says John Calvin tried to stop the execution, others say he helped it along. Infant baptism as one of his writings is a fact. Temporary as it was, he did set up a theocracy in Geneva.

 

[jbh28]

There have been threads ad nausem about the death of Michael Servetus. One says John Calvin tried to stop the execution, others say he helped it along. Infant baptism as one of his writings is a fact. Temporary as it was, he did set up a theocracy in Geneva.

Of course and I believe really it's a total waste of time. My theology comes from the Bible. The truth is that Calvin tried to have him hung instead of burned. It was a different culture and I disagree with what they did. But Calvin wasn't in charge obviously. Yes, Infant baptism is very much false and I disagree with him strongly on that.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Of course and I believe really it's a total waste of time. My theology comes from the Bible. The truth is that Calvin tried to have him hung instead of burned. It was a different culture and I disagree with what they did. But Calvin wasn't in charge obviously. Yes, Infant baptism is very much false and I disagree with him strongly on that.

Actually, Calvin wanted him beheaded. And oh, yes, Calvin was in charge of the Geneva theocracy; his health caused him to stay behind the scenes sometimes, but there's no doubt who was in charge.

 

[jbh28]

Actually, Calvin wanted him beheaded. And oh, yes, Calvin was in charge of the Geneva theocracy; his health caused him to stay behind the scenes sometimes, but there's no doubt who was in charge.

Yes, you're right. I'm not sure where I got hung from.

 

[Iconoclast]

The question is: Why is man totally depraved? Answer that one.

Here is a quote from the Baptist Cathechism with Commentary,by W.R.Downing;
Adam died spiritually immediately upon his act of disobedience, i.e., his
relationship to God, his personality and his nature underwent a substantial
change of relationship. His personality was originally under the control of a
righteous intelligence, but came under the sway of the physical nature and its
appetites. This sinful shift in the personality can only begin to be set aside by
84
saving grace (Jn. 3:3, 5; Rom. 6:6; Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 3:1–3; 9–10). See
Question 164.
Adam stood as Representative Man, and therefore when he sinned in
apostatizing from God, the whole human race fell in him as their federal head.
This is called “original sin,” or immediate imputation. Even if a person could
begin from any point in his or her life and live perfectly without sin—even if
this were possible—he or she would still be utterly condemned because of
original sin [the imputation of Adam’s transgression]. The condemnation and
guilt of sin are thus inescapable. See Question 66.
When Adam and Eve, as sinners, had children, they, too, were sinners
(Gen. 5:3). The defacement of the Divine image in man was passed to all of
Adam’s posterity by both imputation and inheritance. Thus, all human beings
not only have original sin, but also a sinful nature and so are prone to personal
sin. The inheritance of Adam’s sinful nature and proneness to transgression is
termed “‘mediate’ imputation” (Rom. 3:9–18). Both the immediate and
mediate imputation of sin are awful realties.Every subsequent human being consequently evidences his or her sinful
state by personal sins in disposition, inclination, motivation, thought, word
and deed as being under its reigning power. Because all human beings are
sinners, all stand in need of salvation from both the reigning power of sin and
from its immediate and ultimate consequences.
It is not only noteworthy, but absolutely vital to understand that, even with
the curse, there came the promise of a redeemer (Gen. 3:15) [the
protevangelium, or first promise of the gospel]. This Divine revelation to the
serpent as a challenge and to man as a promise demonstrates constantly that
God is a God of purpose, who delights in mercy and glories in grace (Isa.
45:22; Jn. 3:16–18)!

 

[webdog]

,

Here is a quote from the Baptist Cathechism with Commentary,by W.R.Downing;
Adam died spiritually immediately upon his act of disobedience, i.e., his
relationship to God, his personality and his nature underwent a substantial
change of relationship. His personality was originally under the control of a
righteous intelligence, but came under the sway of the physical nature and its
appetites. This sinful shift in the personality can only begin to be set aside by
84
saving grace (Jn. 3:3, 5; Rom. 6:6; Eph. 4:22?–24; Col. 3:1?–3; 9?–10). See
Question 164.
Adam stood as Representative Man, and therefore when he sinned in
apostatizing from God, the whole human race fell in him as their federal head.
This is called ?“original sin,?” or immediate imputation. Even if a person could
begin from any point in his or her life and live perfectly without sin?—even if
this were possible?—he or she would still be utterly condemned because of
original sin [the imputation of Adam?’s transgression]. The condemnation and
guilt of sin are thus inescapable. See Question 66.
When Adam and Eve, as sinners, had children, they, too, were sinners
(Gen. 5:3). The defacement of the Divine image in man was passed to all of
Adam?’s posterity by both imputation and inheritance. Thus, all human beings
not only have original sin, but also a sinful nature and so are prone to personal
sin. The inheritance of Adam?’s sinful nature and proneness to transgression is
termed ?“?‘mediate?’ imputation?” (Rom. 3:9?–18). Both the immediate and
mediate imputation of sin are awful realties.Every subsequent human being consequently evidences his or her sinful
state by personal sins in disposition, inclination, motivation, thought, word
and deed as being under its reigning power. Because all human beings are
sinners, all stand in need of salvation from both the reigning power of sin and
from its immediate and ultimate consequences.
It is not only noteworthy, but absolutely vital to understand that, even with
the curse, there came the promise of a redeemer (Gen. 3:15) [the
protevangelium, or first promise of the gospel]. This Divine revelation to the
serpent as a challenge and to man as a promise demonstrates constantly that
God is a God of purpose, who delights in mercy and glories in grace (Isa.
45:22; Jn. 3:16?–18)!

Awful lot of philosophy there ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[InTheLight]

Adam died spiritually immediately upon his act of disobedience, i.e., his
relationship to God, his personality and his nature underwent a substantial
change of relationship. His personality was originally under the control of a
righteous intelligence, but came under the sway of the physical nature and its
appetites. This sinful shift in the personality can only begin to be set aside by
saving grace (Jn. 3:3, 5; Rom. 6:6; Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 3:1–3; 9–10). See
Question 164.

Adam stood as Representative Man, and therefore when he sinned in
apostatizing from God, the whole human race fell in him as their federal head.
This is called “original sin,” or immediate imputation.

So because of a free will decision made by Adam he underwent a "sinful shift in personality". So Adam was not totally depraved before he ate of the fruit, but after he ate of it, as punishment God made him totally depraved and by extension everyone else in every generation to come. Is that correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

So because of a free will decision made by Adam he underwent a "sinful shift in personality". So Adam was not totally depraved before he ate of the fruit, but after he ate of it, as punishment God made him totally depraved and by extension everyone else in every generation to come. Is that correct?

very good, you just explained the theology of salvation per the Apostle Paul!

 

[InTheLight]

very good, you just explained the theology of salvation per the Apostle Paul!

Thanks for the input JesusFan/DaChaser1/Yeshua1. Would someone from the Calvinist camp please answer the question:


Adam was not totally depraved before he ate of the fruit, but after he ate of it, as punishment God made him totally depraved and by extension everyone else in every generation to come. Is that correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks for the input JesusFan/DaChaser1/Yeshua1. Would someone from the Calvinist camp please answer the question:


Adam was not totally depraved before he ate of the fruit, but after he ate of it, as punishment God made him totally depraved and by extension everyone else in every generation to come. Is that correct?

God permitted adam to 'freely' chose to sin or not, had predestined the Cross of Christ to be the solution to the sin problem of humanity, and Once spiritully seperated from god due to his sin, God declared that judgement would pass to all after him, as all would be born seperated from god as would be spiritually dead and in sin natures!

Adam stood before the Lord as being head of the human race, that whatever he decided to do would be the same lot dor those to follow

In like fashion, jesus stoodbefore God as the head of the spritually, as his obedience allowed God to pass on salvation and forgiveness to those in Him!

 

[Iconoclast]

,

Awful lot of philosophy there ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Wd....this section has more of an explanation to it.What I see as a clear distiction is that Christians indwelt by the Spirit,are being restored as true image bearers....our minds are being renewed{eph4} so as new creatures we start with God's word....to derive a godly perspective on the world we live in...A Christian world and life view...

Unsaved man suffering under sins lasting effects start with their own unregenerate carnal reasoning, trying to be their own God...They reason from their sin tainted minds in a way that is contra biblical...This is human philosophy...in distinction from a biblical worldview....One starts with God and his word...the other starts with sinful rebellious man, who re-creates a god of his own design.

Have you ever watched those shows...like lock-up. where they show people being brought into jail....intake...or shows like cops???

Many times the "alleged" perpetrator is under the influence of alcohol, narcotics, or other substances.......They can sort of walk and talk....but their judgement and speech are all twisted, crooked , and perverted...they throw them chained into a holding cell...till the drug wears off, then they try to speak with them....

That is to me the difference between the unsaved sinner{like a drug controlled person}...and the saved sinner...now free to begin to obey God.

Can you agree in principle on this???

A biblical example I would point to is when Jesus healed the demoniac....After Jesus dealt with him...he was sitting, clothed , and in His right mind.

 

[Iconoclast]

So because of a free will decision made by Adam he underwent a "sinful shift in personality". So Adam was not totally depraved before he ate of the fruit, but after he ate of it, as punishment God made him totally depraved and by extension everyone else in every generation to come. Is that correct?

ITL...
I tried to answer yesterday, but I messed something up,and I see it did not post...I will try again here;

The text does not say "free will"....this obviously leads to disputes.

We do make choices, we freely choose as moral agents...yes...that does not address the question of will......is it free ,will...or self will....scripture says self will
[QUOTESo Adam was not totally depraved before he ate of the fruit, ][/QUOTE]


Before eating the fruit Adam and Eve had original righteousness...Gen 1:31

Yet..they were untested.Not having sinned Adam had open access to fellowship and commune with God.
His mind was unclouded ,and not suffering under the limits,decay,and bondage that comes with sin and death.

ITL.... we are not told how long this was true,we are not given details of what a mind in complete health is capable of....so I would prefer not to speculate beyond what scripture does offer.
Adam for example....came equipped to name the animals, that means he could speak, think, and create,etc.......He did not order hooked on phonics, or a speak and say toy at Toys R Us....God granted him gifts and abilities:thumbs:
keep in mind however, that as God has Moses write this account for us...He focuses even now on the cross...the cause and necessity of it being revealed.
That should always be our focus...even when we look back to Gen1;1
God has an eternal purpose that he has revealed to His people Eph 3:9-11

but after he ate of it, as punishment God made him totally depraved

The text does not say......God made him....
Adam failing the test and falling brought the consequence of this sin upon him,and us in him...it is passed on to all men.....romans 3.allsinned, all died at that exact point in time
This can only be changed by the last Adam...1cor 15..agreed???

and by extension everyone else in every generation to come. Is that correct?

the tragic consequence of the fall is passed to all of us.
the theological term Depravity comes from the latin...it means crooked ,twisted ,and perverted....

men think, but it is sinful and profane ,rather than Godly. God commands something, men pervert it.
The ten commandments illustrate this.....men want the opposite of what God commands...or they will select parts they like ,and twist away from, the full command,...or speculate upon what they think God should have done instead.

 

[InTheLight]

The text does not say......God made him....
Adam failing the test and falling brought the consequence of this sin upon him,and us in him...it is passed on to all men.....romans 3.allsinned, all died at that exact point in time
This can only be changed by the last Adam...1cor 15..agreed???

I somewhat agree. The text does not say "God made him" depraved. But it is a logical assumption. Who else would cause this condition to happen?

 

[Iconoclast]

I somewhat agree. The text does not say "God made him" depraved. But it is a logical assumption. Who else would cause this condition to happen?

I somewhat agree. The text does not say "God made him" depraved. But it is a logical assumption. Who else would cause this condition to happen?

ITL

God instructed them not to eat of that one tree. We are not told what specifically was contained in that tree, or its fruit, or if just the disobedience itself brought consequences.

If you tell a person ....do not drink drano....and they do...what actually causes the consequences????

1]the drano...chemicals etc

2] the drinking of it

3]ignoring your instructions

4]pride of life

5] presumption

6] lack of clear thinking

7]all of the above

8]a combination of two or three of these things

you could make up many examples...but with Adam we can narrow it down a bit.....

God made him good
God gave instruction
God gave commands
God warned of consequences

That Adam transgresses tragically brings the consequences to us all.That has taken place.

A person gets drunk,drives a car, crashes, goes through windshield,then winds up with 200 stitches to the face and brain damage.....
Goes to surgery and rehab......gets patched up...but will never be restored to the original condition ,until new heaven and glorification....Then we will no longer be able to sin,and will have full clarity of mind.:wavey:

 

[InTheLight]

Either God caused man to become depraved or He allowed it. Yes? No?