Are You a Calvinist or a Non-Cal?

[jbh28]

Some of the posters on here are demonstrating some of the most unchristlike behavior I've seen in a while. I guess some think that Calvinist are stupid. This is one reason why I haven't posted in this thread for the last couple of days. Instead of speaking about the Bible and using the Bible, some would rather direct their arguments against their opponents. When of course none of us should be opponents since we are all on Christ's side.

 

[Iconoclast]

If you assume your view of God is accurate (question begging) then yes, you are correct, we'd be blaming God for being in sovereign control over our natures being totally depraved from birth. Now, why do you deny that? Don't you all believe He is sovereign over all things?


Ok, then tell us what the Calvinistic view is then. Who, if not God, decided that all men would have a totally depraved nature from birth due to the Fall? Just answer the question and then we will know your view.

I and others have answered....I answered in posts...136,137*139* 141....
take a look:thumbs:

 

[seekingthetruth]

This is an interesting poll.

Whcih begs the question, if non-cals outnumber the cals on the BB by 2 to 1, then why do the cals control the board?

John

 

[Iconoclast]

This is an interesting poll.

Whcih begs the question, if non-cals outnumber the cals on the BB by 2 to 1, then why do the cals control the board?

John

God has ordained it:wavey:

 

[preacher4truth]

This is an interesting poll.

Whcih begs the question, if non-cals outnumber the cals on the BB by 2 to 1, then why do the cals control the board?

John

Can't you just ignite your bogus free will powers and become 'champs' here? 'Blab it and grab' it bucko? Um, no, ain't happenin'. :laugh: :wavey: :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Some of the posters on here are demonstrating some of the most unchristlike behavior I've seen in a while. I guess some think that Calvinist are stupid. This is one reason why I haven't posted in this thread for the last couple of days. Instead of speaking about the Bible and using the Bible, some would rather direct their arguments against their opponents. When of course none of us should be opponents since we are all on Christ's side.

Because to some in here, it is a competition my brother. However the whole aim for Calvinistic theology, especially in soteriology, is to glorify God for His sovereign grace. This attitude to me anyway is post tenebras lux---"after darkness, light." Still I will not define myself as a Calvinist because Christ/God tells me not to limit myself by taking oaths.....nor will I site total free will ....thats just insanity. I am a historical & biblical Christian believer (nothing more & nothing less). I also know that I am a sinner.....but I am slowly getting better. Developing a mind thats Christlike is an evolving process.

doing what they are doing here is nothing more than choosing sides & that is wrong minded & an assault on Christ....I advise to stop doing it. It accomplishes nothing.

Happy Easter to all. :wavey: :godisgood:

 

[Skandelon]

I and others have answered....I answered in posts...136,137*139* 141....
take a look:thumbs:

Your answer was, "the tragic consequence of the fall is passed to all of us."

and

"yes...it was God..."

but then when inthelight asked for clarity as to who caused the punishment to be total depravity you accused him of 'blaming God.'

You seem to be missing the point of the question. If my son lies to me and I decide to shoot him in the face for lying I'd go to jail, right? I chose an inappropriate and illegal punishment as a consequence for his lying. However, if I chose to ground him in his room for a week for lying then everything would be fine. In short, the child is responsible for lying but I'm responsible for the punishment I choose. That is all we are saying.

God must have been the one to choose to make the consequences for sin to be total depravity for all mankind due to the sin of Adam. He is responsible for the choice of that punishment. We are NOT saying He is responsible for the sin of Adam, we are saying He is responsible for deciding the punishment for that sin. Is that correct?

 

[Iconoclast]

God must have been the one to choose to make the consequences for sin to be total depravity for all mankind due to the sin of Adam. He is responsible for the choice of that punishment. We are NOT saying He is responsible for the sin of Adam, we are saying He is responsible for deciding the punishment for that sin. Is that correct?

I will stand by my answers in the posts,which you are brushing off. I cannot answer further without getting a warning. It appears to me ,and others...you have problems with God, His eternal purpose ,and plan.
You claim that you welcome debate and interaction, but when Ann or others call you on your posting,and what you offer as questions...you edit it,and warn us? When you are questioned directly on your posts...the rules change.

You seem to be missing the point of the question

Nope, got the question and answered it ....but only if someone wants an answer to the question.

but then when inthelight asked for clarity as to who caused the punishment to be total depravity you accused him of 'blaming God.'

I answered ITL clearly in post #137

here it is again;

ITL.... we are not told how long this was true,we are not given details of what a mind in complete health is capable of....so I would prefer not to speculate beyond what scripture does offer.
Adam for example....came equipped to name the animals, that means he could speak, think, and create,etc.......He did not order hooked on phonics, or a speak and say toy at Toys R Us....God granted him gifts and abilities
keep in mind however, that as God has Moses write this account for us...He focuses even now on the cross...the cause and necessity of it being revealed.
That should always be our focus...even when we look back to Gen1;1
God has an eternal purpose that he has revealed to His people Eph 3:9-11


Quote:

but after he ate of it, as punishment God made him totally depraved

The text does not say......God made him....
Adam failing the test and falling brought the consequence of this sin upon him,and us in him...it is passed on to all men.....romans 3.allsinned, all died at that exact point in time
This can only be changed by the last Adam...1cor 15..agreed???

Quote:
and by extension everyone else in every generation to come. Is that correct?

the tragic consequence of the fall is passed to all of us.
the theological term Depravity comes from the latin...it means crooked ,twisted ,and perverted....

men think, but it is sinful and profane ,rather than Godly. God commands something, men pervert it.
The ten commandments illustrate this.....men want the opposite of what God commands...or they will select parts they like ,and twist away from, the full command,...or speculate upon what they think God should have done instead.

 

[preacher4truth]

I will stand by my answers in the posts,which you are brushing off. I cannot answer further without getting a warning. It appears to me ,and others...you have problems with God, His eternal purpose ,and plan.

This is true, and a wise choice on your part Iconoclast.

You claim that you welcome debate and interaction, but when Ann or others call you on your posting,and what you offer as questions...you edit it,and warn us? When you are questioned directly on your posts...the rules change.

Yep. Then the ever changing 'point' or the incessant 'we don't get it' ploy.

Nope, got the question and answered it ....but only if someone wants an answer to the question.


I answered ITL clearly in post #137

here it is again;

Great answer. :thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

Who decided what the consequences of the Fall would be?

 

[InTheLight]

I answered ITL clearly in post #137

here it is again;

Adam failing the test and falling brought the consequence of this sin upon him, and us in him...it is passed on to all men

"brought the consequence...upon him"

Consequence of sin, result of sin, punishment of sin must have an administrator, someone that can cause the consequence to be carried out. OK, so who set up the consequence? Where did the consequence, which in your view is total depravity, originate?

 

[Iconoclast]

"brought the consequence...upon him"

Consequence of sin, result of sin, punishment of sin must have an administrator, someone that can cause the consequence to be carried out. OK, so who set up the consequence? Where did the consequence, which in your view is total depravity, originate?

Sin...and a knowledge of sin...has it's own consequences. God is sovereign over life and death.....NOTHING.....is outside of God. answer these two posts in more than a half sentence.....

from post 137

Before eating the fruit Adam and Eve had original righteousness...Gen 1:31

Yet..they were untested.Not having sinned Adam had open access to fellowship and commune with God.
His mind was unclouded ,and not suffering under the limits,decay,and bondage that comes with sin and death.

ITL.... we are not told how long this was true,we are not given details of what a mind in complete health is capable of....so I would prefer not to speculate beyond what scripture does offer.
Adam for example....came equipped to name the animals, that means he could speak, think, and create,etc.......He did not order hooked on phonics, or a speak and say toy at Toys R Us....God granted him gifts and abilities
keep in mind however, that as God has Moses write this account for us...He focuses even now on the cross...the cause and necessity of it being revealed.
That should always be our focus...even when we look back to Gen1;1
God has an eternal purpose that he has revealed to His people Eph 3:9-11


Quote:
but after he ate of it, as punishment God made him totally depraved

The text does not say......God made him....
Adam failing the test and falling brought the consequence of this sin upon him,and us in him...it is passed on to all men.....romans 3.allsinned, all died at that exact point in time
This can only be changed by the last Adam...1cor 15..agreed???


Quote:
and by extension everyone else in every generation to come. Is that correct?

the tragic consequence of the fall is passed to all of us.
the theological term Depravity comes from the latin...it means crooked ,twisted ,and perverted....

men think, but it is sinful and profane ,rather than Godly. God commands something, men pervert it.
The ten commandments illustrate this.....men want the opposite of what God commands...or they will select parts they like ,and twist away from, the full command,...or speculate upon what they think God should have done instead.

here from post139....connect the dots

ITL

God instructed them not to eat of that one tree. We are not told what specifically was contained in that tree, or its fruit, or if just the disobedience itself brought consequences.

If you tell a person ....do not drink drano....and they do...what actually causes the consequences????

1]the drano...chemicals etc

2] the drinking of it

3]ignoring your instructions

4]pride of life

5] presumption

6] lack of clear thinking

7]all of the above

8]a combination of two or three of these things

you could make up many examples...but with Adam we can narrow it down a bit.....

God made him good
God gave instruction
God gave commands
God warned of consequences

That Adam transgresses tragically brings the consequences to us all.That has taken place.

A person gets drunk,drives a car, crashes, goes through windshield,then winds up with 200 stitches to the face and brain damage.....
Goes to surgery and rehab......gets patched up...but will never be restored to the original condition ,until new heaven and glorification....Then we will no longer be able to sin,and will have full clarity of mind.
__________________

God in making man originally good....kept man from sin and it's consequences....like a parent protecting a child......a child like dinah gen34 that goes against revealed truth suffers consequences.

This answer and illustrations ...which I do not care to over use offer an answer to anyone who wants one...

 

[InTheLight]

We're just going around in circles. You (apparently) see the Fall and being totally depraved as the same thing. They're not. The Fall was an action, being totally depraved is the consequence. In your Drano example I would say the manufacturer of the Drano caused the consequence. The action of drinking was taken by the person being disobedient but had there been fruit punch in the bottle instead of Drano there would be no consequence.

I have no clue what your reference to Dinah and Gen. 34 has to do with this.

 

[Winman]

Your answer was, "the tragic consequence of the fall is passed to all of us."

and

"yes...it was God..."

but then when inthelight asked for clarity as to who caused the punishment to be total depravity you accused him of 'blaming God.'

You seem to be missing the point of the question. If my son lies to me and I decide to shoot him in the face for lying I'd go to jail, right? I chose an inappropriate and illegal punishment as a consequence for his lying. However, if I chose to ground him in his room for a week for lying then everything would be fine. In short, the child is responsible for lying but I'm responsible for the punishment I choose. That is all we are saying.

God must have been the one to choose to make the consequences for sin to be total depravity for all mankind due to the sin of Adam. He is responsible for the choice of that punishment. We are NOT saying He is responsible for the sin of Adam, we are saying He is responsible for deciding the punishment for that sin. Is that correct?

Of course you are correct Skan, but they are never going to admit that God caused man's depravity. I personally do not believe God punished Adam's descendents with depravity but has made all men upright (Ecc 7:29) but that all men choose to sin and corrupt themselves.

It is like court. A criminal commits a crime, but the judge determines the sentence. You might steal a car, the judge may decide to give 3 months in jail, or 5 years in jail. The sentence comes from the judge, not the criminal.

In some Middle Eastern countries, they have been known to cut off the hands or fingers of a thief. So, this man will go the rest of his life maimed because of the sentence given him. The thief is guilty of his crime, but the judge determines the sentence. Now, this harsh sentence at least makes a little sense, because cutting off a man's hand will prevent him from stealing again.

What Reformed theology (and others) teach is that God maimed not only Adam as punishment for his sin, but all of his descendants as well, even though they did not commit Adam's sin.

The question is, if God truly hates sin, why would he disable man from being able to do good? Doesn't make sense at all. If God truly desires that man be good and do good things, why would he take away man's ability to do good? Nonsensical. As I said before, cutting off a man's hand can prevent him from stealing again, so this makes sense. But why would you want to disable someone from doing good?

Of course, I personally do not believe God did this. I believe God punishes each man for his own personal sin, and the wage or penalty of that personal sin is death (Eze 18:20).

 

[Iconoclast]

Of course you are correct Skan, but they are never going to admit that God caused man's depravity

We do not blame God.

What Reformed theology (and others) teach is that God maimed not only Adam [/QUO.TE]

The question is, if God truly hates sin, why would he disable man from being able to do good

Willis ...this is what i was speaking about!

 

[AresMan]

Of course you are correct Skan, but they are never going to admit that God caused man's depravity. I personally do not believe God punished Adam's descendents with depravity but has made all men upright (Ecc 7:29) but that all men choose to sin and corrupt themselves.

It is like court. A criminal commits a crime, but the judge determines the sentence. You might steal a car, the judge may decide to give 3 months in jail, or 5 years in jail. The sentence comes from the judge, not the criminal.

In some Middle Eastern countries, they have been known to cut off the hands or fingers of a thief. So, this man will go the rest of his life maimed because of the sentence given him. The thief is guilty of his crime, but the judge determines the sentence. Now, this harsh sentence at least makes a little sense, because cutting off a man's hand will prevent him from stealing again.

What Reformed theology (and others) teach is that God maimed not only Adam as punishment for his sin, but all of his descendants as well, even though they did not commit Adam's sin.

The question is, if God truly hates sin, why would he disable man from being able to do good? Doesn't make sense at all. If God truly desires that man be good and do good things, why would he take away man's ability to do good? Nonsensical. As I said before, cutting off a man's hand can prevent him from stealing again, so this makes sense. But why would you want to disable someone from doing good?

Of course, I personally do not believe God did this. I believe God punishes each man for his own personal sin, and the wage or penalty of that personal sin is death (Eze 18:20).

Many people argue "Why should I be affected by something Adam did?" The problem is that the question begs the question. Adam was created "upright" from the very hand of God. For all intents and purposes, there is nothing in the human sphere to which Adam can be compared (other than Jesus Christ incarnate). If a direct creation of God with the greatest free will available made the wrong choice, upon what basis can anyone argue that he could possibly do better? The data for any such logical argument is totally unavailable.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Based upon this verse, some argue that it was not sin that was passed upon all men, but death. Sure, but it also says that all have sinned.
1. If Adam as the ultimate human bearer of free will sinned, where is the basis to argue from any given wellspring of data that he could have done "otherwise"?
2. If we are not affected by Adam's fall, WHY have "all sinned"? If we have the same free will that Adam did, why, out of the billions of people who have ever lived, have there not even been ONE who has not sinned? Is it just that the statistical deck of time is stacked against everyone so that the likelihood is [size=-4]really, really, really small[/size]?

Also, Total Depravity does not mean that everyone is as evil as he can be, nor than everyone cannot do "good" in the human sense. It is just that no one "seeks after God" (the true God for Who He really is, not a "God" that pleases the natural man).

 

[Iconoclast]

We're just going around in circles. You (apparently) see the Fall and being totally depraved as the same thing. They're not. The Fall was an action, being totally depraved is the consequence. In your Drano example I would say the manufacturer of the Drano caused the consequence. The action of drinking was taken by the person being disobedient but had there been fruit punch in the bottle instead of Drano there would be no consequence.

I have no clue what your reference to Dinah and Gen. 34 has to do with this.

No...I never said they were the same thing.....


So...according to your thought on the drano story.....it would have been better if man was never created, or creation never happened...then there would be no sin??? So are you saying that God as creator...is to blame for mans sin????

 

[InTheLight]

No...I never said they were the same thing.....


So...according to your thought on the drano story.....it would have been better if man was never created, or creation never happened...then there would be no sin??? So are you saying that God as creator...is to blame for mans sin????

No, of course I'm not saying that. First off, I don't adhere to "total depravity" as defined by Calvinists. Man is to blame for their sins. It seems to me that if one holds to total depravity you must accept that God is the one that wired humans to be totally depraved ONCE Adam and Eve sinned.

 

[Amy.G]

It seems to me that if one holds to total depravity you must accept that God is the one that wired humans to be totally depraved ONCE Adam and Eve sinned.

Apparently that was part of God's plan unless you think He created the earth and just flung it into space while singing Que Sera Sera.

 

[webdog]

Apparently that was part of God's plan unless you think He created the earth and just flung it into space while singing Que Sera Sera.

You are mixing God's decretive and permissive wills. Creating my children never came with the plan they would be disobedient to me.