Are You a Calvinist or a Non-Cal?

[Winman]

Many people argue "Why should I be affected by something Adam did?" The problem is that the question begs the question. Adam was created "upright" from the very hand of God. For all intents and purposes, there is nothing in the human sphere to which Adam can be compared (other than Jesus Christ incarnate). If a direct creation of God with the greatest free will available made the wrong choice, upon what basis can anyone argue that he could possibly do better? The data for any such logical argument is totally unavailable.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Based upon this verse, some argue that it was not sin that was passed upon all men, but death. Sure, but it also says that all have sinned.
1. If Adam as the ultimate human bearer of free will sinned, where is the basis to argue from any given wellspring of data that he could have done "otherwise"?
2. If we are not affected by Adam's fall, WHY have "all sinned"? If we have the same free will that Adam did, why, out of the billions of people who have ever lived, have there not even been ONE who has not sinned? Is it just that the statistical deck of time is stacked against everyone so that the likelihood is [SIZE=-4]really, really, really small[/SIZE]?

Also, Total Depravity does not mean that everyone is as evil as he can be, nor than everyone cannot do "good" in the human sense. It is just that no one "seeks after God" (the true God for Who He really is, not a "God" that pleases the natural man).

First, total depravity as defined by Calvinists is a contradiction. You say man is not as bad as he can be, which shows he can choose good. If a person is truly ENSLAVED by a sin nature, he can ONLY choose to do evil. If a person finds a wallet full of money and identification, if a man is truely enslaved to sin he will always keep the money. The fact that men often return the money to the rightful owner proves they are not enslaved to sin.

You admit men are not as bad as they can be, they can choose to do good, but then you contradict yourself and say they cannot respond to God and accept Christ.

Man is either enslaved to sin or not. You yourself testify that he is not.

The fact that billions of men sin does not prove they have a sin nature. Satan and the fallen angels were created good, but they sinned, Adam and Eve were created very good, but they sinned. So the fact that all men sin does not prove they were created depraved.

And I do not find it remarkable at all that all men sin. Adam and Eve were created in a perfect world that supplied all their needs. They had one single law to obey. Yet the very first time they were tempted they sinned.

So why is it remarkable that men born into an utterly corrupt world full of thousands of temptations and with many laws to obey should sin?

What I find remarkable is that Jesus could live 33 years as a man in this world without sinning. Now that is fantastic.

 

[InTheLight]

Apparently that was part of God's plan unless you think He created the earth and just flung it into space while singing Que Sera Sera.

I want to know the Calvinist's answer to who caused total depravity to be a consequence for Adam sin.

 

[jbh28]

First, total depravity as defined by Calvinists is a contradiction. You say man is not as bad as he can be, which shows he can choose good. If a person is truly ENSLAVED by a sin nature, he can ONLY choose to do evil. If a person finds a wallet full of money and identification, if a man is truely enslaved to sin he will always keep the money. The fact that men often return the money to the rightful owner proves they are not enslaved to sin.

John 8:34 says otherwise.

 

[Skandelon]

jbh, can you answer InTheLight's question?

 

[jbh28]

jbh, can you answer InTheLight's question?

Why don't you give us your answer. You've asked the question a lot lately. You claim to believe in the depravity of man, so give us your answer.

 

[Tom Butler]

I thought to myself, this ought to be a pretty simple thread, short answers, I'm a Calvinist. I'm a non-Cal, and we'd be done.

Yet, for some reason, it has veered off into a debate over Calvinism.

I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked! Caught me completely by surprise. Shocked, I tell you! Never saw it coming.

 

[AresMan]

First, total depravity as defined by Calvinists is a contradiction. You say man is not as bad as he can be, which shows he can choose good. If a person is truly ENSLAVED by a sin nature, he can ONLY choose to do evil. If a person finds a wallet full of money and identification, if a man is truely enslaved to sin he will always keep the money. The fact that men often return the money to the rightful owner proves they are not enslaved to sin.

You admit men are not as bad as they can be, they can choose to do good, but then you contradict yourself and say they cannot respond to God and accept Christ.

Man is either enslaved to sin or not. You yourself testify that he is not.

Man is enslaved to sin (the transgression of God's law). This does not mean that everyone does the most vile thing (relatively speaking) 24/7.
1. It means that every part of a person's being is affected by the fall, not that the person is as evil as possible.
2. It means that people have the bent toward sin without regard for the true God as He really is.
3. It means that people can do human good without the altruistic intention of serving the God of the Bible.
4. People can "seek God" (a god of their natural desires) by coming to a seeker sensitive church or for other reasons that have nothing to do with an understanding of who they really are, what they really need, and Who God really is. People can seek the god of Oprah Winfrey or the god of Mormonism, but that is NOT what Romans 3:10 is about. A person must be effectually drawn by God to come to Him as He is (John 6:44; Romans 8:28-30; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Ephesians 2:5).

The fact that billions of men sin does not prove they have a sin nature. Satan and the fallen angels were created good, but they sinned, Adam and Eve were created very good, but they sinned. So the fact that all men sin does not prove they were created depraved.

No, they were not created "depraved" the way we are born. However, the fact that Satan was created upright and fell, and that Adam and Eve were created upright and fell does not give a good track record for supposed libertarian free will. Do Satan and his angels have the free will to repent? If not, why not? Satan's fate of eternal punishment is even recorded in Scripture (and he knows it), yet we recognize that he is persistently evil. Why are humans any different from this paradigm, other than the degree of corruption? The difference is that God seems to be gracious and merciful to such of fallen humans, but not to the fallen angels for reasons only known to God.

And I do not find it remarkable at all that all men sin. Adam and Eve were created in a perfect world that supplied all their needs. They had one single law to obey. Yet the very first time they were tempted they sinned.

Okay. Of all the creatures of God created upright, they did the wrong thing with the highest form of free will ever available. What kind of track record does that provide for the idea of libertarian free will?

So why is it remarkable that men born into an utterly corrupt world full of thousands of temptations and with many laws to obey should sin?

Why is it NOT remarkable that there is so much corruption in the world if everyone has libertarian free will? Why is everyone a sinner exhaustively if there is no "sin nature" and everyone has libertarian free will? Statistically speaking, should we have, maybe, 50% sinners and 50% non-sinners? The propensity of people to be evil as demonstrated in the antediluvian world, the people at the tower of Babel, the idolatrous people of Ur at Abram's time, the Canaanite peoples, and even the people of Israel who were the nation called out by God should demonstrate that libertarian free will just does not explain the situation we observe. The fact that anyone can do true goodness toward the true God and pleasing to Him is a proof of the power and provision of God, not the supposed libertarian free will of sinful creatures.

What I find remarkable is that Jesus could live 33 years as a man in this world without sinning. Now that is fantastic.

I find it remarkable too, but I do not believe He, as God, was capable of sinning, even though He experienced piercing temptations to do so. We can trust Him for Who He is, not because we can wipe our foreheads after our heart skips a beat and say "Whew, I'm glad Jesus somehow managed to pull it off!"

 

[InTheLight]

jbh, can you answer InTheLight's question?

Why don't you give us your answer. You've asked the question a lot lately. You claim to believe in the depravity of man, so give us your answer.

I asked:

I want to know the Calvinist's answer to who caused total depravity to be a consequence for Adam's sin.

inside a thread I started titled "Are you a Calvinist or a Non-Cal?"

Since Skandelon is most definitetly NOT a Calvinist, I don't think he is obligated to answer it.

You're being evasive.

 

[jbh28]

I asked:



inside a thread I started titled "Are you a Calvinist or a Non-Cal?"

Since Skandelon is most definitetly NOT a Calvinist, I don't think he is obligated to answer it.

You're being evasive.

I'm asking Skan because he's the one that originally asked the question. You just jump on his bandwagon and started to ask the question. (which has been answered by Calvinist on here already). I ready to see Skan answer the question since he does believe in total depravity.

 

[InTheLight]

I'm asking Skan because he's the one that originally asked the question. You just jump on his bandwagon and started to ask the question.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1827918&postcount=122

I ready to see Skan answer the question since he does believe in total depravity.

 

[webdog]

Nothing is more irritating than when a question is asked and it is avoided and evaded to no end. It would be more honorable to just come out and say I don't have an answer.

 

[jbh28]

Nothing is more irritating than when a question is asked and it is avoided and evaded to no end. It would be more honorable to just come out and say I don't have an answer.

Nothing is more irritating that someone comes in a makes comments like yours. What purpose were you attempting to accomplish? I'm sure it's nothing profitable. The question has been answered, many times over. Icon gave and answer. I don't know of one that's better. I would like to know the real answer. I'm hear to learn.

 

[jbh28]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1827918&postcount=122

"originally" I never said you didn't ask the question. We were having the discussion before your post 122.

Regardless, I've given the best answer from the Bible that I know. Since I must not have answered the question correctly, I would like to know what the correct answer is so I can be a better student of the Bible. Unless of course the goal wasn't that we all can know the Bible better.

 

[InTheLight]

Nothing is more irritating that someone comes in a makes comments like yours. What purpose were you attempting to accomplish? I'm sure it's nothing profitable. The question has been answered, many times over. Icon gave and answer. I don't know of one that's better. I would like to know the real answer. I'm hear to learn.

Here is Icon's answer (which is mostly begging the question):

Adam failing the test and falling brought the consequence of this sin upon him,and us in him...it is passed on to all men....

...the tragic consequence of the fall is passed to all of us.

This consequence (total depravity) that is passed to all men....where did it come from?

You see, I'm not asking IF there is total depravity or what TRIGGERED it to be implemented, I want to know who designed it.

 

[jbh28]

Here is Icon's answer (which is mostly begging the question):

Adam failing the test and falling brought the consequence of this sin upon him,and us in him...it is passed on to all men....


...the tragic consequence of the fall is passed to all of us.

This consequence (total depravity) that is passed to all men....where did it come from?



You see, I'm not asking IF there is total depravity or what TRIGGERED it to be implemented, I want to know who designed it.

I believe his answer was from Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned"

Well, first of all, do you believe that the doctrine of total depravity is correct. Would you agree with what Icon said, or do you have disagreements with it. It appears as though you don't believe it answered your question. But I want to see if that's it, or do you have disagreements with that answer as well.

 

[webdog]

Nothing is more irritating that someone comes in a makes comments like yours. What purpose were you attempting to accomplish? I'm sure it's nothing profitable. The question has been answered, many times over. Icon gave and answer. I don't know of one that's better. I would like to know the real answer. I'm hear to learn.

What am I trying to accomplish? An answer to questions asked. I cannot tell you how many questions I ask that go without an answer, or turn into ad hominems. It's quite frustrating. ITL has not received an answer to his question. It's quite a simple question. Total depravity came from somewhere...where?

 

[webdog]

I believe his answer was from Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned"

Well, first of all, do you believe that the doctrine of total depravity is correct. Would you agree with what Icon said, or do you have disagreements with it. It appears as though you don't believe it answered your question. But I want to see if that's it, or do you have disagreements with that answer as well.

So nothing created total depravity, it was created ex nihilo? Who decreed that? How is just quoting that verse an answer to the question?

 

[jbh28]

So nothing created total depravity, it was created ex nihilo? Who decreed that?

What's your answer? Instead of always asking questions let's have some answers.

 

[webdog]

What's your answer? Instead of always asking questions let's have some answers.

What part of the question being posed to a calvinist don't you get? Instead of constantly asking non cal's who do not hold to the "T", why not just answer the question?

 

[InTheLight]

What's your answer? Instead of always asking questions let's have some answers.

You are asking us to detail the origin of something we do not believe exists. The burden is on the Calvinist to explain the origin of the bedrock of their systematic theology.

So have at it.