Are you a Slave of God?

[Luke2427]

Get what? You haven't been either a 19th century nor 1st century slave, you cannot tell me what they could or couldn't do WHILE SLAVES. You are merely pontificating again so as to 'win'. Enjoy you quest.

So then you can't.

It would have been noble of you to admit it... but you don't have to. Its obvious to all.

Your WHOLE PREMISE rests on this idea that slavery in the Bible for a slave who was serving as a slave is so vastly different than African slaves 160 years ago and you can't, i mean literally cannot provide ONE IOTA of distinction between the two.

You keep regurgitating this crap about how one BECOMES a slave and how one does not STAY a slave but you dodge for all your worth the challenge to deal with what it was like TO BE a slave. Not how to BECOME one or how to stop being one--- BUT HOW TO BE ONE.

It's obvious to any thinking person that you are in over your head in this discussion- that your premise is totally faulty.

 

[preacher4truth]

So then you can't.

It would have been noble of you to admit it... but you don't have to. Its obvious to all.

Your WHOLE PREMISE rests on this idea that slavery in the Bible for a slave who was serving as a slave is so vastly different than African slaves 160 years ago and you can't, i mean literally cannot provide ONE IOTA of distinction between the two.

You keep regurgitating this crap about how one BECOMES a slave and how one does not STAY a slave but you dodge for all your worth the challenge to deal with what it was like TO BE a slave. Not how to BECOME one or how to stop being one--- BUT HOW TO BE ONE.

It's obvious to any thinking person that you are in over your head in this discussion- that your premise is totally faulty.

NT believers and apostles counted it an honor to be a slave of Christ and had a good grasp on theology.

We see just the opposite attitude, and the opposite understanding of Scripture among the anti-cals of today.

 

[psalms109:31]

We as free men a free agency is either a slave to Christ or a slave to sin.

Some one who is a slave to Christ by force and not by love is going straight to hell?

Yes or no?

We are slave to Christ as free men a free agency.

 

[Skandelon]

No, you SAY you are for it while totally undermining it.

You said "Call you no more slaves but friends..." means that we are no more slaves.

I've clarified my position on this point countless times, but instead of dealing with what I have stated you continue to misrepresent me.

I explained to you my both/and (not either/or) position in post 102

You responded by claiming that I deny that the master/servant roll...

I corrected you again in post 105

Then you finally acknowledge my both/and approach but denied that the master/slave relationship is lessor than a father/son relationship. Really? You think the master and slave have a closer more intimate relationship than a father/son or a friend?

I'll let you just hold on to that view and throw your own words right back to you...

"It is utterly, utterly, indescribably, totally ridiculous nonsense."

Law = slavery, master, fear, servant, rules...and Jesus said, "I no longer call you servant..."

Grace = freedom, adoption, sonship, friendship, love...and Paul said, "You no longer receive a spirit of fear, but one of adoption..." and 1 John teaches that "true love drive out fear..."

How can you conclude that Jesus' words in John 15:15 weren't indicating this maturing of their relationship? What else could it be suggesting?

 

[Luke2427]

I've clarified my position on this point countless times, but instead of dealing with what I have stated you continue to misrepresent me.

I explained to you my both/and (not either/or) position in post 102

You responded by claiming that I deny that the master/servant roll...

I corrected you again in post 105

Then you finally acknowledge my both/and approach but denied that the master/slave relationship is lessor than a father/son relationship. Really? You think the master and slave have a closer more intimate relationship than a father/son or a friend?

I'll let you just hold on to that view and throw your own words right back to you...

"It is utterly, utterly, indescribably, totally ridiculous nonsense."

Law = slavery, master, fear, servant, rules...and Jesus said, "I no longer call you servant..."

Grace = freedom, adoption, sonship, friendship, love...and Paul said, "You no longer receive a spirit of fear, but one of adoption..." and 1 John teaches that "true love drive out fear..."

How can you conclude that Jesus' words in John 15:15 weren't indicating this maturing of their relationship? What else could it be suggesting?

So here you do it again. You say you believe in the master/slave relationship and then say it means negative things.

Your problem here is the problem that plagues the whole of your theology and philosophy. You either create a dichotomy where there is none or you swing the pendulum too far the other way and deny a dichotomy where one must exist. You cannot seem to settle in the balance.

You cannot help but see a dichotomy between slave and son.
Then you embrace an illogical dichotomy concerning how God knows things (God already knows everything and God learns as he goes).

Your hermeneutics are flawed as well. You take one phrase that says what you want "I call you no more slaves" and interpret all other references by that one favored phrase.

The fact of the matter is that we will be slaves in the eternal state. Its never going to end. You don't "mature out of it"... EVER.

His being our Father does not change His role as our LORD and MASTER.

But you make a dichotomy where there shouldn't be one.

 

[Skandelon]

NOTE: I DID NOT CLOSE THIS THREAD. I DO NOT EVER CLOSE THREAD I'M ACTIVE IN NOR DO I MODERATE SOMEONE I'M ENGAGED WITH IN DEBATE. IT MAY APPEAR I DID BECAUSE I'M THE MODERATOR, BUT THERE ARE OTHER MODERATORS AND ADMINS WORKING HERE AND I CANNOT CONTROL WHEN THEY CHOOSE TO CLOSE A THREAD. SORRY FOR THE FRUSTRATION.

So here you do it again. You say you believe in the master/slave relationship and then say it means negative things.

I gave you an analogy of how I used to obey my dad out of fear of his punishment and out of desire for an allowance. That relationship was real and necessary, but it wasn't the BEST it could be....it grew and matured into something more. That is what I've argued all along. Staying in a relationship motivated out of fear is negative when you can grow into a relationship motivated by love. Why would you disagree with this?

Your problem here is the problem that plagues the whole of your theology and philosophy. You either create a dichotomy where there is none or you swing the pendulum too far the other way and deny a dichotomy where one must exist. You cannot seem to settle in the balance.

I'm the one arguing for a both/and perspective, remember? Jesus, NOT ME, pointed to this change from slave to friend...you just don't want to acknowledge and deal with the reality of that maturing processing in relationships for some reason. I suspect if it were one of your Calvinistic buddies saying the exact same thing you wouldn't have a problem with it, but if its me then your bias rears its ugly head.

Your hermeneutics are flawed as well. You take one phrase that says what you want "I call you no more slaves" and interpret all other references by that one favored phrase.

I've listed NUMEROUS verses about the shift from law to grace, from fear to love, from slave to son, from master to friend...but you choose to ignore them for whatever reason.

The fact of the matter is that we will be slaves in the eternal state. Its never going to end. You don't "mature out of it"... EVER.

You won't with this attitude. :tongue3:

His being our Father does not change His role as our LORD and MASTER.

Except that he now lets us in on what He is doing, whereas a master doesn't do that for his slave...AS JESUS EXPLAINED. You can ignore the distinction that Jesus drew all day long but I'm not going to ignore Jesus.