Are you Emergent?

[Michael Wrenn]

It's "ok" to believe that a person can be saved after they've gone to hell? That's just one of his unorthodox beliefs.

Some of you people apparently don't have the ability to grasp what I believe about freedom and God's character. You have once again mischaracterized what my position is. I didn't say I believed that; I said I believe it's possible. Again, I base my position on freedom, which is the door to possibilities -- a freedom which is an essential element of God's character.

I also base my belief on 1 Peter: 18-20, which also suggests that people have a chance to be saved after death. Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison after his death. What and where was this prison, and what is the purpose of preaching?

Unlike many here, I don't presume to know everything about the afterlife. But I do trust God to do what's right, just, merciful, and compassionate.

I don't see a lot of the fruits of the Spirit here in many people; I do see a lot of accusatory insults and arrogant, know-it-all, extremist judgmentalism -- the kinds of attitudes that those who had Jesus crucified exhibited.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Annsni...

I'm sorry, but Michael Wren had every right to call Iconocalst a liar.

We may not agree with everthing Michael Wren posts, but he is not creating his own God, and creating his own church.

He simply has some different convitions then we do. Guess what? That is perfectly OK

Regarding brother Iconoclast. I have about given up on him.

Thank you, dear friend, for you support.

I have about decided, though, that this forum is not the place for me. But I wouldn't feel I fit in on any mainline forums, either. I'm too liberal for the fundamentalists and too conservative for the liberals.

I enjoy discussion, but not battling. So, I don't know of a forum where I could have good fruitful discussions without being attacked and insulted. I've been on other forums, and I've gotten attacked by liberals, fundamentalists, Catholics, Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians, Dispensationalists, Calvinists, and more. Like Ghandi, I've discovered I don't like many who claim to be followers of Jesus.

 

[glfredrick]

Thank you, dear friend, for you support.

I have about decided, though, that this forum is not the place for me. But I wouldn't feel I fit in on any mainline forums, either. I'm too liberal for the fundamentalists and too conservative for the liberals.

I enjoy discussion, but not battling. So, I don't know of a forum where I could have good fruitful discussions without being attacked and insulted. I've been on other forums, and I've gotten attacked by liberals, fundamentalists, Catholics, Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians, Dispensationalists, Calvinists, and more. Like Ghandi, I've discovered I don't like many who claim to be followers of Jesus.

Michael, again, you have the most ecclectic of doctrines, and of all the persons I've ever run into, you are the epitome of one using the "cafeteria line" means of selecting what you wish to believe. You take a little bit of this and a little bit of that and then make attempt to stitch it together into some coherent format, but you cannot because the doctrines you choose to hold are either mutually exclusive, non-biblical, or worse, downright heretical.

Then, you come to a forum -- as admitted above -- ANY forum and try "selling" or "gaining approval" of your heterodox views, and you get shut down at every turn. That you blame EVERYONE ELSE is your own fatal flaw, for MANY have actually tried to reason with you as to why some of what you hold is indeed heterodox. But you blame anyway.

At the end of the day if YOU are right and EVERYONE ELSE is wrong, perhaps it is time to return to your own doctrinal choices to see if perhaps, just perhaps you have made some decisions in error, for ultimately you are a castaway on an island to yourself, and will never find like company. You can't... NNE ELSE believes what you do!

And again as well, none of this has to be permanent. You CAN investigate the truth of the matter and repent/recant some of your wild assertions and come into line with what the Bible teaches in context. Anyone can... But to the lengths that you are unwilling and continue to justify yourself and your quest for utter libertarian freedoms, while at the same time giving lip service to God, you will not succeed in your quest, and I do indeed greatly fear for the ultimate demise of your soul. Were we togehter in person I would attempt to evangelize you...

 

[mandym]

too conservative for the liberals.

Not likely

I enjoy discussion, but not battling.

You might want to check your posts in the past.

 

[Gold Dragon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfLjAh-mWso

Thanks for that. I watched the whole two hours as well. I think Elliott Nesch did a really good job of describing what the emerging/emergent church is and highlighting some of the problems of the movement and its leaders. I think it was pretty fair in complementing some aspects of the movement and stating that not all who identify with it necessarily associated with the same teachers or teachings.

There is a lot of material to discuss in the video and it was interesting to hear direct quotes from some of the emergent leaders, their writings and who their influences are. That was very helpful to me and I will look into some of these people a little more.

McLaren is the author I have most read and I have disagreed with most of his more controversial positions where he challenges the literalness of hell and the possibility of salvation for non-Christians. I have in the past defended his position here because he does not come out and say hell is non-literal or that non-Christians will definitely be saved, but suggested them as "what-ifs". But it sounds like his more recent statements are slightly more definitive in his questionable beliefs and that is more troubling to me. Subtle but significant in my eyes.

I think the video did a good job on the sections of the gospel, contemplative prayer, mysticism and heaven and hell. Not so much with postmodernity, deconstruction, homosexuality and eschatology sections.

I really appreciate Elliott Nesch's narrator's final statements of "It is time for all Christians to join the worldwide conversation of the emerging church and earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints before it is too late."

Conservative Christians who understand postmodernity need to be involved in the conversation and not just from a debating, denouncing heresy aspect. I did appreciate Bob DeWaay's contributions to the video because he seemed to be actively engaged with the emerging church, reading its writers and understanding their positions, more so than most of the other critics on the video.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Not likely

I have had people want to join out Communion but wouldn't when they found out I wouldn't bend our stance on abortion, homosexual marriage and ordinations, and these:

"We do not endorse any form of New Age philosophy, "re-imaging," neo-paganism, goddess-worship, etc.; we are not an "anything goes" Communion. We are opposed to syncretistic Christianity."

The CAC holds to traditional Christian moral and ethical values. Such values will never be subject to any kind of vote by CAC members/clergy. These issues will never be determined by majority opinion as in most mainline denominations. Ageless truths cannot be altered by whims of popular culture. Furthermore, any CAC minister proven to be engaging in immoral and unethical practices is subject to the immediate revoking of their ministerial credentials.



You might want to check your posts in the past.

Yeah, after I was attacked and personally insulted.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael, again, you have the most ecclectic of doctrines, and of all the persons I've ever run into, you are the epitome of one using the "cafeteria line" means of selecting what you wish to believe. You take a little bit of this and a little bit of that and then make attempt to stitch it together into some coherent format, but you cannot because the doctrines you choose to hold are either mutually exclusive, non-biblical, or worse, downright heretical.

Then, you come to a forum -- as admitted above -- ANY forum and try "selling" or "gaining approval" of your heterodox views, and you get shut down at every turn. That you blame EVERYONE ELSE is your own fatal flaw, for MANY have actually tried to reason with you as to why some of what you hold is indeed heterodox. But you blame anyway.

At the end of the day if YOU are right and EVERYONE ELSE is wrong, perhaps it is time to return to your own doctrinal choices to see if perhaps, just perhaps you have made some decisions in error, for ultimately you are a castaway on an island to yourself, and will never find like company. You can't... NNE ELSE believes what you do!

And again as well, none of this has to be permanent. You CAN investigate the truth of the matter and repent/recant some of your wild assertions and come into line with what the Bible teaches in context. Anyone can... But to the lengths that you are unwilling and continue to justify yourself and your quest for utter libertarian freedoms, while at the same time giving lip service to God, you will not succeed in your quest, and I do indeed greatly fear for the ultimate demise of your soul. Were we togehter in person I would attempt to evangelize you...

I find affinity with parts of several traditions, but many of them have one identifying principle that I can't agree with -- entire sanctification, tongues as evidence of Holy Spirit baptism, etc.

I can't be pigeonholed -- that's the problem. Again, you mischaracterize me.

I would still identify myself as moderate Baptist/Anabaptist with Celtic influence. I could fit with the General Baptists, some SBC churches, the American Baptists, the CBF, some conservative Anglican groups, and some moderate/conservative Quakers. The only ones of those near me, though, are SBC churches, but I don't know if any are moderate-conservative. Some are fundamentalist, but I believe many are just good conservative churches.

I do not fear for my soul; I will not turn away from Jesus. I have the freedom to do so, but I shall not.

 

[DaChaser1]

That is true.

maybe they are not satisfied with our biblical answers because they cannot even really understand the truth unless/until,God saves them, as there are from gods perspective, and natural man prefers to have those truths set up in humaistic ways, NOT ways God sees them?

 

[DaChaser1]

Thank you, dear friend, for you support.

I have about decided, though, that this forum is not the place for me. But I wouldn't feel I fit in on any mainline forums, either. I'm too liberal for the fundamentalists and too conservative for the liberals.

I enjoy discussion, but not battling. So, I don't know of a forum where I could have good fruitful discussions without being attacked and insulted. I've been on other forums, and I've gotten attacked by liberals, fundamentalists, Catholics, Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians, Dispensationalists, Calvinists, and more. Like Ghandi, I've discovered I don't like many who claim to be followers of Jesus.

Question NOT between liberal/conservative christianity, but heretical vrs Biblcal doctrines!

Would you hold to man being sinners, whose ONLYway to get saved by god is through the atonement of Christ upon the Cross, and that IF one dies without receiving jesus in this life, they will die in theri sins, and forever be seperated from god?

THAT is what the Lord says, NOT Robb bell says!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I really don't care what some here think about me anymore. It only matters what God thinks about me. And of course I care about what my family and friends think.

 

[glfredrick]

I really don't care what some here think about me anymore. It only matters what God thinks about me. And of course I care about what my family and friends think.

Michael, pretending that you do not care, then posting for all to see that you do not care does not compute.

You obviously care deeply and are upset about the whole issue. But you also lash out against those who would attempt to love you enough to share with you the truth of the Word of God. And note, we're not even trying to convert you to one narrow position or another, we're trying to get you to sit up and take notice that you walk apart from orthodox Christianity!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Michael, pretending that you do not care, then posting for all to see that you do not care does not compute.

You obviously care deeply and are upset about the whole issue. But you also lash out against those who would attempt to love you enough to share with you the truth of the Word of God. And note, we're not even trying to convert you to one narrow position or another, we're trying to get you to sit up and take notice that you walk apart from orthodox Christianity!

Guy, why do you baby this creature? He is obviously willful & he doesnt give a fig about what anyone trys to teach him....he slanders & throws around insults then curls up into a "poor poor pitiful me, they dont understand me posture" ....yea, right that is posturing....yet we are to be sympathetic to this mess. Shakes head!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Guy, why do you baby this creature? He is obviously willful & he doesnt give a fig about what anyone trys to teach him....he slanders & throws around insults then curls up into a "poor poor pitiful me, they dont understand me posture" ....yea, right that is posturing....yet we are to be sympathetic to this mess. Shakes head!

You cannot cite any slander done by me. As for insults, you are the king of those.

You exhibit no fruits of the Spirit -- none.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael, pretending that you do not care, then posting for all to see that you do not care does not compute.

You obviously care deeply and are upset about the whole issue. But you also lash out against those who would attempt to love you enough to share with you the truth of the Word of God. And note, we're not even trying to convert you to one narrow position or another, we're trying to get you to sit up and take notice that you walk apart from orthodox Christianity!

Everyone who was ever persecuted and murdered by state churches walked apart from orthodox Christianity, according to the ones who were doing the persecuting and murdering.

 

[glfredrick]

Guy, why do you baby this creature? He is obviously willful & he doesnt give a fig about what anyone trys to teach him....he slanders & throws around insults then curls up into a "poor poor pitiful me, they dont understand me posture" ....yea, right that is posturing....yet we are to be sympathetic to this mess. Shakes head!

There is a better way, grasshopper...

I actually think that Michael has been led astray by what sounds good and what appeals to both his intellect and his emotions. The place where he has problems, however, is in reconciling all that to the Scriptures. From his first volley of late on the board, he let us know that he did not see ALL the Scriptures as being God's Word, and therein lies some of the problem.

That he resorts to a pity posture is a given... Doesn't help his main problems, however, which I think that he knows.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

There is a better way, grasshopper...

I actually think that Michael has been led astray by what sounds good and what appeals to both his intellect and his emotions. The place where he has problems, however, is in reconciling all that to the Scriptures. From his first volley of late on the board, he let us know that he did not see ALL the Scriptures as being God's Word, and therein lies some of the problem.

That he resorts to a pity posture is a given... Doesn't help his main problems, however, which I think that he knows.

That is funny -- but incorrect.

Just because I was thinking of leaving the board has nothing to do with pity.

 

[glfredrick]

That is funny -- but incorrect.

I'm sure that you will correct me... :laugh:

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I'm sure that you will correct me... :laugh:

At least you have a sense of humor. I can deal with that.

 

[glfredrick]

At least you have a sense of humor. I can deal with that.

Of course... This is a forum for argument. Best not to take one's self too seriously, except in matters where it is patently evident that the discussion stems from a view that is detrimental to LIFE IN CHRIST. At that point, the play comes grinding to a halt and the real spiritual work begins, for play and argumentation about doctrinal issues is all find and dandy, but a soul that may be lost is worthy of attention and prayer!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You cannot cite any slander done by me. As for insults, you are the king of those.

You exhibit no fruits of the Spirit -- none.

Ohhhh you want me to be kind to you do you.......ROLF! Besides, you only know me by my conserned side.....trying to wake you from your spiritual lethergy.

Ever been in the military? In my branch anyway the men you meet when you get off the bus are called "Drill Instructors" ... have you experienced this? If not & you think your a unique entity when you 1st get there...:laugh: well that notion will leave you very quickly. Same thing with Christianity..... many are called but few, right.

Now you think that that DI is just the most miserable son of a gun you ever met & you dream of killing him but somewhere along the lines you start to see him molding you, assisting you & teaching you so that one day you will have the honor of actually evolving into a Marine. Brother it ain't easy but it changes you.

Personally I see you moving in many ill advised directions, I scarcely know how to deal with it. You've slandered people, & you have postured & you have wined but honestly ....like you say, I see nothing of you to tell me your anything but confused. Now you can take that analysis, along with the analysis of other well intended folks & throw it in the garbage or you can do a real life hard inventory of yourself & work to better yourself. If I believe in any deity, I would bless him & thank him for that freedom of choice, for without owning up to the fact that you can do that, all the rest is weakness. Your choice brother.