Are you Emergent?

[SolaSaint]

Amen:thumbsup:

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I was not aware that Bell left Mars Hill. But a quick search of the reasons why show your post to be misrepresenting what happened.

His views may have cost him his pastorate but only in the sense that the success of his book lead Bell to leave the pastorate to move to Los Angeles and focus on writing books, speaking tours and a possible foray into television to reach a wider audience. While he loses respect points from me for leaving his pastorate to pursue these aspects of his career, I think it is reflective of what often happens to popular speakers in our current Christian world and is a decidedly non-postmodern thing to do with the focus less on the local and more on the global.
Christianity Today - Update: Rob Bell to Move to L.A. and Launch a Tour
Mars Hill statement

In terms of his doctrinal position and status as a "heretic", yes many evangelicals have called him that which is par for the course for many in the evangelical community. Sure Bell toys with ideas of Universalism and the concept of hell and questions the traditional evangelical/protestant/Catholic/Orthodox views on those issues. He never comes out and commits to any particular view and even denies he is a Universalist. But from reading reviews from supporters and critics of Bell on the book, I don't think he says anything particularly new on the subject or all that extreme to be honest.

Anyway, I'm sure there are many who disagree with me on that but I may read the book just to see how false all these accusations are, even though the content itself is not so interesting to me. Universalism and questioning the literalness of hell has been around since the early church as fringe views but they are positions that are difficult to support biblically and we will never really know until we die what the answer is. But I understand why we have those questions and they are frequently asked questions by young Christians and non-Christians, often with unsatisfying answers from the traditional perspective.

That is true.

 

[mandym]

But I understand why we have those questions and they are frequently asked questions by young Christians and non-Christians, often with unsatisfying answers from the traditional perspective.

To suggest that the traditional perspective is some how problematic because those you suggest are "unsatisfied" is to fail to understand the Gospel.

 

[glfredrick]

That is true.

No, that is not "true" and further, you cannot really even agree with what Gold Dragon said and use the word "true" for there is no frame of reference within the post-modern expression to use that term as you have.

You might indicate that it is "true for you" or that you can see how it may be "true for those who hold that opinion" but you cannot just say that something is "true" for there is no such thing in the world that you have created.

See why it is a self-defeating philosophy?

Further, the ussue of universalism is not one that is in flux or difficult to discern from the text of Scripture. IT DOES NOT EXIST in Scripture UNLESS one sets aside any concept of truth (as coherence between written words and the intent of the writer in concert with the actuality of the expression written) -- which of course is precisely what you and Gold Dragon are doing.

Jello on the all by any other name is just as difficult to pin down.

And, further, God, BEING TRUTH, will one day hold those who decide, "Did God really say?" about what He DID say, will discover the truth of their error -- the hard way. That is bad news for you and for Gold Dragon and for others like Rob Bell who have shifted away from an expression of truth that, as I said above, predates modernism and will post-date post-modernism, for a new doctrine of their and your own making. The GOOD NEWS is that while you yet draw breath on this earth, you can implore God through prayer to cause you to repent of your unbelief and you can be set right with God in accordance with the Scriptures. (Prov. 9:10 - ESV) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight. Don't be STUPID! :godisgood:

 

[Gold Dragon]

No, that is not "true" and further, you cannot really even agree with what Gold Dragon said and use the word "true" for there is no frame of reference within the post-modern expression to use that term as you have.

You might indicate that it is "true for you" or that you can see how it may be "true for those who hold that opinion" but you cannot just say that something is "true" for there is no such thing in the world that you have created.

See why it is a self-defeating philosophy?

Further, the ussue of universalism is not one that is in flux or difficult to discern from the text of Scripture. IT DOES NOT EXIST in Scripture UNLESS one sets aside any concept of truth (as coherence between written words and the intent of the writer in concert with the actuality of the expression written) -- which of course is precisely what you and Gold Dragon are doing.

Jello on the all by any other name is just as difficult to pin down.

And, further, God, BEING TRUTH, will one day hold those who decide, "Did God really say?" about what He DID say, will discover the truth of their error -- the hard way. That is bad news for you and for Gold Dragon and for others like Rob Bell who have shifted away from an expression of truth that, as I said above, predates modernism and will post-date post-modernism, for a new doctrine of their and your own making. The GOOD NEWS is that while you yet draw breath on this earth, you can implore God through prayer to cause you to repent of your unbelief and you can be set right with God in accordance with the Scriptures. (Prov. 9:10 - ESV) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight. Don't be STUPID! :godisgood:

Maybe you misunderstood what I said. I have always held to Christian exclusivism and Christ's words in John 14:6 “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I have considered Rahner's concept of Anonymous Christians and even C.S. Lewis appears to have considered this view, but I would not say there is any biblical support for the view.

My point was that many new Christians or non-Christians know about Christian exclusivism and have questions about certain situations (ie people who never had a chance to become Christians) and how God would judge them. I think the answers given from the traditional perspective of Christian exclusivism, while is the biblical response, can be very unsatisfying and hence people consider alternatives like Universalism. That doesn't make it right but understandable why people would consider it.

 

[glfredrick]

Can we not speak to those seeking the Kingdom without removing the hurdles that exist in the gospel?

I just came out of a church in Louisville where we did just that. If anything, we raised the gospel SO high that only God could cause one to cross that hurdle. And, cross it they have. In 10 years from a new plant with 12 people there now exists 4 campuses with close to 3000 average attenders and over 1200 members. And, yes, they are committed to the gospel! Just got the email about last week's giving... Over $100,000 given ON ONE SUNDAY! No special emphasis, just what they do, but that was a good day! Typical is closer to $70K. Extra gifts for tornado victims and to get the budget in line so more expansion can occur.

Have other congregations averaged over $100 per member in giving? And that is in a CULTURALLY emergent congregation where the average age is under 30 and where most members only just became Christians within the past 3-5 years or less.

 

[DaChaser1]

Anything as "slippery" and "undefinable" as the TRUE emergent church movement is dangerous, for it is nothing more than an admission that "THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE" is not any of the above.

Sorry... Post-modernism aside, we CANNOT deconstruct God and come away better for the experience. God predates modernism and will post-date post-modernism, and His truth shall stand. Furthermore, His truth shall be the edict of judgment against those who invent their own versions thereof.

See why I said above that the emerging movement is ALL ABOUT DOCTRINE and not at all about CULTURE?

bell and others in Emergent movement hav in a subtle fashion undermined God, and brought man up to where god HAS to save us, as we are inherintly 'good"

And the bible is NOT infallible/fixed in its positions on doctrines, but fluid and shifting to them in order to accomadate what modern culture/views says should be right!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

No, that is not "true" and further, you cannot really even agree with what Gold Dragon said and use the word "true" for there is no frame of reference within the post-modern expression to use that term as you have.

You might indicate that it is "true for you" or that you can see how it may be "true for those who hold that opinion" but you cannot just say that something is "true" for there is no such thing in the world that you have created.

See why it is a self-defeating philosophy?

Further, the ussue of universalism is not one that is in flux or difficult to discern from the text of Scripture. IT DOES NOT EXIST in Scripture UNLESS one sets aside any concept of truth (as coherence between written words and the intent of the writer in concert with the actuality of the expression written) -- which of course is precisely what you and Gold Dragon are doing.

Jello on the all by any other name is just as difficult to pin down.

And, further, God, BEING TRUTH, will one day hold those who decide, "Did God really say?" about what He DID say, will discover the truth of their error -- the hard way. That is bad news for you and for Gold Dragon and for others like Rob Bell who have shifted away from an expression of truth that, as I said above, predates modernism and will post-date post-modernism, for a new doctrine of their and your own making. The GOOD NEWS is that while you yet draw breath on this earth, you can implore God through prayer to cause you to repent of your unbelief and you can be set right with God in accordance with the Scriptures. (Prov. 9:10 - ESV) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight. Don't be STUPID! :godisgood:

Since I am not a universalist, your blathering post full of falsehoods is useless.

 

[glfredrick]

Since I am not a universalist, your blathering post full of falsehoods is useless.

Michael, you come on this site and say some of the most outrageous stuff, then get ticked off when someone questions your doctrines. Either don't be shocked when your radical doctrines are questioned or don't post them for discussion. Can't have it both ways, or is that what you are attempting? Looking for affirmation that your extreme views are okay? Sorry dude. Bible says otherwise!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael, you come on this site and say some of the most outrageous stuff, then get ticked off when someone questions your doctrines. Either don't be shocked when your radical doctrines are questioned or don't post them for discussion. Can't have it both ways, or is that what you are attempting? Looking for affirmation that your extreme views are okay? Sorry dude. Bible says otherwise!

From the CAC website, here are my views on Hell:

"Hell

The word translated "eternal" in relation to hell in the New Testament does not mean eternal in the original languages, but rather means an "eon," or "age," -- a long, indefinite period of time. My view of the duration of hell does not embrace an unconditional universalism, an unconditional eternal hell, nor annihilationism. My view could be summarized as follows: In principle, separation from God can be final. A person could so misuse his freedom that he might lose his freedom to respond to God. He could turn his back on God for so long that he might no longer hear God calling him. Therefore, to deny the possibility of an eternal hell would be to limit man's freedom.

However, we have grounds for believing that God does not alter His saving activity toward those who have died. For instance, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 4:6 strongly suggests that the apostolic mind thought that change is possible in the life beyond. Thus, the ancient practice of prayers for the dead does not have to imply a belief in purgatory; it could be done on the basis of the belief that God, directly and through those who serve Him, continues to seek those who have closed themselves off from God. If this is true, then the door to hell is locked only from the inside. For these reasons, I believe that the door to repentance is never closed -- neither in this life, nor in the next."

I am not God, so I don't pretend to know all about the afterlife.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Ansni...

If the pastor is in jeans, it must be!!!

Now wait just a cotton pickin minute there young lady!



All I wear to church is a shirt and jeans an I aint one of those "lost in the woods" emergent" rascals!

 

[Iconoclast]

From the CAC website, here are my views on Hell:

"Hell

The word translated "eternal" in relation to hell in the New Testament does not mean eternal in the original languages, but rather means an "eon," or "age," -- a long, indefinite period of time. My view of the duration of hell does not embrace an unconditional universalism, an unconditional eternal hell, nor annihilationism. My view could be summarized as follows: In principle, separation from God can be final. A person could so misuse his freedom that he might lose his freedom to respond to God. He could turn his back on God for so long that he might no longer hear God calling him. Therefore, to deny the possibility of an eternal hell would be to limit man's freedom.

However, we have grounds for believing that God does not alter His saving activity toward those who have died. For instance, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 4:6 strongly suggests that the apostolic mind thought that change is possible in the life beyond. Thus, the ancient practice of prayers for the dead does not have to imply a belief in purgatory; it could be done on the basis of the belief that God, directly and through those who serve Him, continues to seek those who have closed themselves off from God. If this is true, then the door to hell is locked only from the inside. For these reasons, I believe that the door to repentance is never closed -- neither in this life, nor in the next."

I am not God, so I don't pretend to know all about the afterlife.

when you are inventing your own church ,and teaching...in contradiction to bible truth...the meaning of the words does not matter...you are inventing your own god who does what you want him to.

 

[annsni]

From the CAC website, here are my views on Hell:

"Hell

The word translated "eternal" in relation to hell in the New Testament does not mean eternal in the original languages, but rather means an "eon," or "age," -- a long, indefinite period of time. My view of the duration of hell does not embrace an unconditional universalism, an unconditional eternal hell, nor annihilationism. My view could be summarized as follows: In principle, separation from God can be final. A person could so misuse his freedom that he might lose his freedom to respond to God. He could turn his back on God for so long that he might no longer hear God calling him. Therefore, to deny the possibility of an eternal hell would be to limit man's freedom.

However, we have grounds for believing that God does not alter His saving activity toward those who have died. For instance, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 4:6 strongly suggests that the apostolic mind thought that change is possible in the life beyond. Thus, the ancient practice of prayers for the dead does not have to imply a belief in purgatory; it could be done on the basis of the belief that God, directly and through those who serve Him, continues to seek those who have closed themselves off from God. If this is true, then the door to hell is locked only from the inside. For these reasons, I believe that the door to repentance is never closed -- neither in this life, nor in the next."

I am not God, so I don't pretend to know all about the afterlife.

Wait - so you mean that the fact that when people die and then face judgment, there is still a chance at salvation?????????

 

[annsni]

Ansni...




Now wait just a cotton pickin minute there young lady!



All I wear to church is a shirt and jeans an I aint one of those "lost in the woods" emergent" rascals!

But you must be!!!! EMERGENT!!!!!!!

**shhhh - I'm going to wear jeans on Sunday too because we're leaving to go on vacation straight from church and I am NOT driving 12 hours in dress pants!!!!**

 

[Alive in Christ]

But you must be!!!! EMERGENT!!!!!!!

**shhhh - I'm going to wear jeans on Sunday too because we're leaving to go on vacation straight from church and I am NOT driving 12 hours in dress pants!!!!**

I wont tell a living soul. Itll just be our little secret!

 

[Iconoclast]

Wait - so you mean that the fact that when people die and then face judgment, there is still a chance at salvation?????????

That is exactly what was posted just make it up like burger king...have it your way!

 

[Amy.G]

I hate to keep repeating myself but......Twilight Zone......

I think I hear Rod Serling........

 

[Alive in Christ]

Wait - so you mean that the fact that when people die and then face judgment, there is still a chance at salvation?????????

Not a chance at all, unfortunetly. The're fate is sealed.

 

[Alive in Christ]

If you want to really see where Emergents are heretical--drop on down on the blog to John Spong's youtube video. If the Emergents look to Spong to base their beliefs then they are really out there. Scary Stuff. I have studied Spong and he is a heretic.

John Spong???

Well, he certainly is a heretic, but good grief I thought he died DECADES ago! Wasnt he one of the ones who put together that heresy ridden "Jesus Seminar" back in the 80's?.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

when you are inventing your own church ,and teaching...in contradiction to bible truth...the meaning of the words does not matter...you are inventing your own god who does what you want him to.

[Personal attack edited] did you become an expert at it somewhere along the way?