Are you qualified to speak?

[Iconoclast]

TCassidy

So now you are saying that Christ is not Lord of every aspect of your life?

That is what I have been saying all along. Glad to see you have come over to the biblical side.

No....I am still believing what I have always believed.I think we were talking past each other before. Christ is Lord of every aspect of my life.

My obeying Him Or not obeying Him does not change this reality.
If your child does not obey you...are you not His Father anymore because of his disobedience?

If he obeys you does that make you His Father?

Jesus is Lord of the living and the dead.

Lordship salvation is nothing more than the old "Holier than Thou" arrogance dusted off and given a new name.

I do not agree with your pov on this.

The bottom line of Lordship Salvation is "I am better than you because Jesus is Lord of my life."

The whole teaching came about because of flawed evangelistic methods, false converts walking the aisle, or raising that hand...with every eye closed.

They did this in the flesh, the flesh wears down, so now they are called up to the unscriptural"old fashioned altar" to re-dedicate themselves....the pastor tells them...if anyone has Jesus as savior but not Lord....they can "make Him Lord of their life" really begin to live the surrendered life, etc...all nonsense.

If God saved them in the first place they would be growing in grace...instead we have a goat stampede to perform another unscriptural religious ritual

Well, duh! Jesus is Lord of everybody's life! He is Lord of all! That is what "Lord" means, "Master" or "Ruler."

Not everyone teaches that.

And what type of response do we get from the Lordship Salvationists? Deflection.

there is no deflection at all.

Thank you for proving my point. There is no common meaning to the term Lordship Salvation. Each proponent has their own definition.

No...only those who oppose it claim to not understand it.

Of course it doesn't. Jesus is Lord. The problem lies not with Him and His Lordship but with you and your sin nature.

The reality of remaining sin is dealt with by the teaching of mortification of sin..

If you mean every part of your life you are a liar

.

No.... I lie not friend, and I mean every part of life. There is no part of life that He fails to rule over.....people will give account of every idle word.

You sin against Him by thought, word, and deed every day.

we all do...rom7

The old nature still inflicts itself on us and tarnishes our obedience.

No..we are still in a body that is able to sin,because of indwelling sin and corruption. The old man has been crucified, We are in new man in an old body.

{QUOTE]Exactly what I said[/QUOTE]

not really..

.

So, you believe you lose your salvation every day and have to get resaved?

Jesus died a Covenant death for All the Father has given to Him. No sheep loses salvation.

 

[The American Dream]

I am beginning to think we are talking past each other on many of these LS posts. What I consider a works gospel is if someone comes to salvation, and trusts the Holy Spirit to guide him or her, then is not happy with the time table, does a part 2, usually under his or her own will. Or at the time of salvation, they memorize a list of sins in their life and try to overcome them on their own will.

Maybe that is not the case here. It should be that at the time of salvation, grace, faith, confession, and repentance was done with the power of the Holy Spirit. Our entire life is His from then on even though we do sin. If that is the case, then there should be no argument. Salvation in Christ is sufficient. There is no need for the term Lordship Salvation.

 

[padredurand]

Excellent post for all saved folks..............

I don't know of any pastors within the bounds of orthodoxy that teach anything to the contrary. If we are, indeed, new creations in Jesus Christ there should be some evidence of the new life. I think one of the problems is in the need to name what is clearly delineated in Scripture as if it was a new discovery.

What God called holiness man has tried to brand it each with their own twist to make it appear unique. Wesley called it holiness of heart, Christian perfection, entire sanctification and others. MacArthur co-opted Lordship Salvation as if it was a new idea in 1988. Nothing could be further from the truth.

There are plenty of problems with the concept of holiness from that Wesleyan perspective: a second act of grace and sinless perfection. I have a bushel basket full of papers on this subject somewhere in the cellar and no desire to dig them out. MacArthur's brand has it share of problems with the most glaring being his misunderstanding of the free grace position.

I'm sure there are some but I personally do not know of any who teach it as MacArthur presents it. In short he calls free grace a false gospel that requires that a man need only make a verbal confession long enough to get his ticket punched for the Heaven-bound train and then the man is free to resume his former, sin-soaked life. Presented in those terms I would agree that it is a false gospel. It does not represent the Gospel according to Jesus. Neither does it present the Gospel from the free grace point of view.

If you have ever studied Wesley to any degree you will notice that he draws bold distinctions between the act of justification and sanctification. In doing so there is a perceptible pause between a man being saved and the subsequent maturation - chronology not withstanding. Consistent with Arminian doctrine the absence of evidence of sanctification could cause one to assume the individual had made a shipwreck of faith and had lost their salvation. Lordship Salvation- finding the man in the same lacking evidence position - concludes the man was never saved to begin with; again consistent with the Calvinistic leaning.

Now take away all the labels and the desire to brand your label as superior to any other and what do you find? When a man is born again his life will evidence that change. Period. Raising hands, signing a card, walking the aisle or saying a prayer shouldn't be dismissed so readily. I personally do not know of any preachers that consider those acts of themselves to be assurance of another's entrance into Heaven. God does the convicting, God does the convincing, God does the saving, God does the holding through the power of the Holy Ghost and the shed blood of Jesus Christ. If God chooses to do that at the Second Baptist Church of Upper Podunk and sends the man running to the altar rail so an elder can help him come to terms with what is happening then so be it.

Maybe I don't spend enough time with false teachers but I don't know of any preachers who would shake the man's hand and declare it a finished product. Pardon my returning to Mr. Wesley but his deliberate distinguishing the two acts might be helpful in this regard. DISCIPLESHIP.

I have three very smart children. All three could read before they started school. They could read because they were taught by my wife and me. I could have assumed they had a brain, handed them the 26 letters of the alphabet and few punctuation marks and said, "Go ahead and read." They needed to be taught everything from A to Z before they could read. Isn't that the same thing we should do with brand new believers? We should but how often do we just hand them a Bible, tell them to quit smoking, drinking and cussing. Should we be surprised when their lives bear no evidence of salvation? Maybe we're to busy arguing about whether they had it but lost it or never had it to begin with.

False gospels, easy-believism, works salvation.... It so easy to just throw out the label and never look at what is really being said and what is really happening.

 

[The American Dream]

[double post}

 

[The American Dream]

I don't know of any pastors within the bounds of orthodoxy that teach anything to the contrary. If we are, indeed, new creations in Jesus Christ there should be some evidence of the new life. I think one of the problems is in the need to name what is clearly delineated in Scripture as if it was a new discovery.

What God called holiness man has tried to brand it each with their own twist to make it appear unique. Wesley called it holiness of heart, Christian perfection, entire sanctification and others. MacArthur co-opted Lordship Salvation as if it was a new idea in 1988. Nothing could be further from the truth.

There are plenty of problems with the concept of holiness from that Wesleyan perspective: a second act of grace and sinless perfection. I have a bushel basket full of papers on this subject somewhere in the cellar and no desire to dig them out. MacArthur's brand has it share of problems with the most glaring being his misunderstanding of the free grace position.

I'm sure there are some but I personally do not know of any who teach it as MacArthur presents it. In short he calls free grace a false gospel that requires that a man need only make a verbal confession long enough to get his ticket punched for the Heaven-bound train and then the man is free to resume his former, sin-soaked life. Presented in those terms I would agree that it is a false gospel. It does not represent the Gospel according to Jesus. Neither does it present the Gospel from the free grace point of view.

If you have ever studied Wesley to any degree you will notice that he draws bold distinctions between the act of justification and sanctification. In doing so there is a perceptible pause between a man being saved and the subsequent maturation - chronology not withstanding. Consistent with Arminian doctrine the absence of evidence of sanctification could cause one to assume the individual had made a shipwreck of faith and had lost their salvation. Lordship Salvation- finding the man in the same lacking evidence position - concludes the man was never saved to begin with; again consistent with the Calvinistic leaning.

Now take away all the labels and the desire to brand your label as superior to any other and what do you find? When a man is born again his life will evidence that change. Period. Raising hands, signing a card, walking the aisle or saying a prayer shouldn't be dismissed so readily. I personally do not know of any preachers that consider those acts of themselves to be assurance of another's entrance into Heaven. God does the convicting, God does the convincing, God does the saving, God does the holding through the power of the Holy Ghost and the shed blood of Jesus Christ. If God chooses to do that at the Second Baptist Church of Upper Podunk and sends the man running to the altar rail so an elder can help him come to terms with what is happening than so be it.

Maybe I don't spend enough time with false teachers but I don't know of any preachers who would shake the man's hand and declare it a finished product. Pardon my returning to Mr. Wesley but his deliberate distinguishing the two acts might be helpful in this regard. DISCIPLESHIP.

I have three very smart children. All three could read before they started school. They could read because they were taught by my wife and me. I could have assumed they had a brain, handed them the 26 letters of the alphabet and few punctuation marks and said, "Go ahead and read." They needed to be taught everything from A to Z before they could read. Isn't that the same thing we should do with brand new believers? We should but how often do we just hand them a Bible, tell them to quit smoking, drinking and cussing. Should we be surprised when their lives bear no evidence of salvation? Maybe we're to busy arguing about whether they had it but lost it or never had it to begin with.

False gospels, easy-believism, works salvation.... It so easy to just throw out the label and never look at what is really being said and what is really happening.

After rereading a lot of the posts, I think sometimes we are talking past each other. All what you said should be accomplished through a one time salvation experience. There is no part 2. We are called to holiness and to work for the Lord, even though we will sin. If you look in Hebrews 6:1-3, there is a type of Christian that has, evidentially for some length of time, not matured in the faith. The writer of Hebrews calls them babes in Christ on milk. I believe Paul mentions it somewhere else also. The writer says it is time to move forward and mature. But for a season there is a Christian in that category that could not have produced much fruit or become like Jesus. I would think while they remain babes in Christ it would be difficult to tell them from the lost. Your posts are very well written and to the point. False doctrine should be exposed. I am an admin in a very large forum that exposes them. The worst offenders are the TV types that get rich off gullible viewers and teach a charismatic, health and wealth type gospel. They are the worst offenders.

 

[Revmitchell]

After rereading a lot of the posts, I think sometimes we are talking past each other.

That is right, and some of the time that is done on purpose as a debate tactic.

 

[padredurand]

That is right, and some of the time that is done on purpose as a debate tactic.

I have the cure. It is a single question that trumps any and all isms. It does not require any theological camp, leaning. bent, preference or conviction. Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." John 14:15 NAS77

You don't have to hold to Lordship Salvation as articulated by John MacArthur, any teachings of any theologian from the past 20 centuries, cite any book in print or out of print. You do not need to ascribe to a doctrinal position that requires 32 poly-syllabic words to state where you stand.

One simple question. Do you love Jesus? Then keep His commandments. But I'm a Pre-dispositional ,seventh bone day, anti-everything.... doesn't matter. Do you love Jesus? Keep His commandments.

But I've been a elder for 237 years and my great-granddaddy gave the land the church is built on.... doesn't matter. Do you love Jesus? Keep His commandments.

All. Of. Them.

 

[quantumfaith]

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Luke 10:25-37

Game, set, match

 

[padredurand]

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Luke 10:25-37

Game, set, match

But.... but..... but..... there is more.

1 John 3:18-24 NAS77

18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
19 We shall know by this that we are of the truth, and shall assure our heart before Him,
20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24 And the one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
​

 

[Aaron]

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

That's exactly right.

But who does this?

Only One ever did. Jesus.

 

[padredurand]

That's exactly right.

But who does this?

Only One ever did. Jesus.

But that is the nature of our calling - to become Christ-like in all our words, action, thoughts and deeds. God doesn't leave us alone to the task. What is our motivation? Love. God is love. He loved us first. Jesus loved the Father and went to Calvary on our behalf. Jesus said if we love Him we will keep His commandments.

If you are anything like me you'll spend the rest of your natural life fumbling, bumbling and stumbling your way there. I don't need a book to tell me this. It was already written in The Book.