PreachTony
Active Member
Go chase a Rabbit
I gotta tell you, Evan...responses like that really boost my confidence in your ability to stand up for your positions and beliefs.
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Are you qualified to speak?
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I gotta tell you, Evan...responses like that really boost my confidence in your ability to stand up for your positions and beliefs.
PreachTony
Active Member
I see a lot of rhetoric but very little actual discussion. Let me just say, for the most part, I have a lot of respect for John MacArthur. I disagree with his dispensationalism (which he seems to be slowly moving away from) and with his Lordship Salvation.
One of the major problems with any discussion of Lordship Salvation is that everybody seems to have a different definition of exactly what Lordship Salvation is and exactly how it works.
Jesus is Lord. Period. Nothing we do can make Him any more or any less Lord. The Psalmist put it this way in Psalm 8, "O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens."
When you read that Psalm in Hebrew it reads "YHWH (Jehovah) our Master . . . " Nobody in his right mind would ever suggest David's entire life was characterized by the Lordship (mastery) of Jehovah. But still Jehovah was his Master.
Lordship Salvation, as proposed by most who champion the doctrine, is, in my opinion, the ultimate Arminianism. (Odd considering how often it is associated with Calvinism.)
You must DO something (make Jesus Lord of your Life) in order to achieve salvation, or in order to keep salvation. Both contradict the Particular redemptionist doctrine of regeneration preceding repentance and faith.
There is not a single person on this planet who can honestly make the claim that Jesus is Lord of his/her life in every nuance and aspect. So, that begs the question: How much Lordship is enough? 10%? 20%? 30%? 40%? 50%? 60%? 70%? 80%? 90%?
Remember, this question is coming from a thorough going Particular Baptist who holds to all five of the Heads of Doctrine commonly called TULIP. And, yes, I have read many (if not most) of the books written on the subject from both perspectives including MacArthur's "The Gospel According to the Apostles: The Role of Works in the Life of Faith," "The Gospel According to Jesus: What Does Jesus Mean When He Says 'Follow Me'?", "Saved Without a Doubt," "Slave: The Hidden Truth about Your Identity in Christ," "The Truth About The Lordship Of Christ," and dozens and dozens of others including "Discipleship: The Expressing of Saving Faith by Robert E Picirilli."
And Ryrie's "So Great Salvation" and dozens of others from the other side.
One of the more balanced books is "Christ the Lord: The Reformation and Lordship Salvation" by Michael Scott Horton. He corrects some of the areas where MacArthur went overboard.
The main problem I have with Lordship Salvation is that it tries to dissect the Person of Christ. It tries to divide his being Lord from His being Savior. He could not be Lord without being Savior and could not be Savior without being Lord. John Owen (17th century English dissenter) wrote, I think, if I remember correctly, in his book "Sin & Temptation: The Challenge to Personal Godliness" that "faith in Christ looks primarily to Him as Savior, but He can only be our Savior as He is Lord" or words to that effect.
So, in my not entirely humble opinion, what is important is that we are in Christ, not how we got there. I am sure when we get to heaven there are going to be many, many things that shock us. We will discover how little we actually knew and understood in this life.
One of the major problems with any discussion of Lordship Salvation is that everybody seems to have a different definition of exactly what Lordship Salvation is and exactly how it works.
Jesus is Lord. Period. Nothing we do can make Him any more or any less Lord. The Psalmist put it this way in Psalm 8, "O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens."
When you read that Psalm in Hebrew it reads "YHWH (Jehovah) our Master . . . " Nobody in his right mind would ever suggest David's entire life was characterized by the Lordship (mastery) of Jehovah. But still Jehovah was his Master.
Lordship Salvation, as proposed by most who champion the doctrine, is, in my opinion, the ultimate Arminianism. (Odd considering how often it is associated with Calvinism.)
You must DO something (make Jesus Lord of your Life) in order to achieve salvation, or in order to keep salvation. Both contradict the Particular redemptionist doctrine of regeneration preceding repentance and faith.
There is not a single person on this planet who can honestly make the claim that Jesus is Lord of his/her life in every nuance and aspect. So, that begs the question: How much Lordship is enough? 10%? 20%? 30%? 40%? 50%? 60%? 70%? 80%? 90%?
Remember, this question is coming from a thorough going Particular Baptist who holds to all five of the Heads of Doctrine commonly called TULIP. And, yes, I have read many (if not most) of the books written on the subject from both perspectives including MacArthur's "The Gospel According to the Apostles: The Role of Works in the Life of Faith," "The Gospel According to Jesus: What Does Jesus Mean When He Says 'Follow Me'?", "Saved Without a Doubt," "Slave: The Hidden Truth about Your Identity in Christ," "The Truth About The Lordship Of Christ," and dozens and dozens of others including "Discipleship: The Expressing of Saving Faith by Robert E Picirilli."
And Ryrie's "So Great Salvation" and dozens of others from the other side.
One of the more balanced books is "Christ the Lord: The Reformation and Lordship Salvation" by Michael Scott Horton. He corrects some of the areas where MacArthur went overboard.
The main problem I have with Lordship Salvation is that it tries to dissect the Person of Christ. It tries to divide his being Lord from His being Savior. He could not be Lord without being Savior and could not be Savior without being Lord. John Owen (17th century English dissenter) wrote, I think, if I remember correctly, in his book "Sin & Temptation: The Challenge to Personal Godliness" that "faith in Christ looks primarily to Him as Savior, but He can only be our Savior as He is Lord" or words to that effect.
So, in my not entirely humble opinion, what is important is that we are in Christ, not how we got there. I am sure when we get to heaven there are going to be many, many things that shock us. We will discover how little we actually knew and understood in this life.
And Dr. Cassidy has said all that needs to be said. :thumbs:
P. S. I have and have read about a dozen books and pamphlets on the subject, and have argued it a few times here on the BB, but am very turned off by the OP.
P. S. I have and have read about a dozen books and pamphlets on the subject, and have argued it a few times here on the BB, but am very turned off by the OP.
Mods you may close this thread. I am wasting my time speaking about LS or Calvinism on this website. I mean if someone like John C wants to dig through a book and the scripture and has honest questions and concerns then that is one thing which is sadly not the majority here. On the streets I would talk about LS with someone that had honest questions. Later people time to go evangelize a womens center.
What? You're not going to interact with Dr. C., who is totally qualified to discuss LS with you according to your standards? You're just giving up?!?
Once again, several pastors have corrected you and once again, you know better. You have also had a couple of posters say they are well versed in MacArthur's view of LS and are still challenging your take on it (whatever that might be, we don't know because you don't tell us.)
Seriously, how many times are you going to start threads, have people with more learning and more experience tell you you're wrong and simply ignore them?
Go chase a kangaroo.
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If Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, and Bennie Hinn support LS it must be true.
You have repeatedly shown contempt for honest questions and concerns. This thread is just one more episode in the saga.
Slap enough horses' rumps, and eventually people will notice that you have a dirty hand.
Go chase a kangaroo.
A subtle reference? Clever.:laugh:
That, right there is funny, I don't care who you are. :laugh:
The books I've read cover to cover would fill a small library.
But the most important one is the Bible, which I've read cover to cover multiple times in multiple translations.
In addition to the Bible, I've read
great portions of Matthew Henry's Commentaries
Luther's Commentary on Romans
The Institutes of the Christian Religion
An Exposition of the Sermon on the Mount (Pink)
The Sermon on the Mount (Boice)
Four Views of Christ (Jukes)
etc.
I'm more qualified than you to speak on the subject of Salvation. And LS ain't it.
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TCassidy
this is not taught by LS advocates.
This statement as posted contradicts your earlier statement. Jesus is Lord.
Jesus is 100 % Lord of every part of life.
If you want to use these numbers , use them to discuss the percentage of disobedience you display to Jesus Lordship. Your disobedience does not diminish his Lordship one iota. If you want to know how much sin we are allowed to commit the answer is none.
this is not taught by LS advocates.
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This statement as posted contradicts your earlier statement. Jesus is Lord.
Jesus is 100 % Lord of every part of life.
If you want to use these numbers , use them to discuss the percentage of disobedience you display to Jesus Lordship. Your disobedience does not diminish his Lordship one iota. If you want to know how much sin we are allowed to commit the answer is none.
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This is a simple deflection.
It has nothing to do with how much one is "allowed" to commit sin.
The question is, how much one "does" commit sin, that is each day every day of his life. The reality is he can't go one day without committing sin, whether of not he is allowed to.
so does that mean you turn to sin?
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I serve God in my spirit. But with my members I serve the law of sin and death
LS is the repackaged Wesleyan doctrine of Entire Sanctification for the Calvinistic mind. I would love to have an intelligent discussion about this with you Evan but you are not qualified. You see I actually finished seminary and have had to defend my doctrinal position, studies and conclusions before a panel of elders annually for the last 22 years. You have read books. Bully for you.
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