Are you Saved?

[Helen]

I have to be short. My hand hurts. I had carpal tunnel surgery last week and the stitches have not come out yet.

"Anything but Jesus" was a quote from a man my husband talked to years ago. This man even prayed to God for 'anything but Jesus' and he was 'sure' that he and God could work something out. He was so insistent on 'anything but Jesus' that Barry despaired of him.

That man is a Christian today. It happened because he wanted to know the truth and he said he found out the truth was 'so different' from what he expected it to be.

That is in line with Romans 1 and Isaiah 1:18. God invites the unbeliever to come and reason with Him in the latter verse so that his sin will become white as snow and in Romans we find that those who suppress the truth (which means it has been presented to them) are the subjects of God's wrath. So it all depends on whether a man prefers truth or lie in the long run. Then, even if he starts with 'anything but Jesus', he will find that Jesus IS the truth he has been looking for.

So many times in the Bible unbelievers are told to seek the Lord "while He may be found." Those who do will not be disappointed.

Barry just read this response and added something. If a person chooses to continually harden his heart (see Ephesians and Hebrews) then there will come a time when, for him, the Lord can no longer be found. But, then, that person, in seeking the lie and self aggrandizement would not be wanting the Lord anyway at that point. There seems to come a 'cross over' time, when going back is no longer possible. We see this with Pharaoh, when he hardened his own heart against Moses so many times that finally the Lord finished the job for him, just as the Lord had told Moses it would happen. Pharaoh is simply the type for the millions (I wish not) who have followed that path. There comes a time when a man no longer wants the truth and is no longer interested in it. There comes a time when there is no turning back; the heart is fully hardened. But before that time there is always the series of opportunities God has given each of us who have ever lived to adulthood to repent and turn to Him.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

We see this with Pharaoh, when he hardened his own heart against Moses so many times that finally the Lord finished the job for him, just as the Lord had told Moses it would happen. Pharaoh is simply the type for the millions (I wish not) who have followed that path. There comes a time when a man no longer wants the truth and is no longer interested in it. There comes a time when there is no turning back; the heart is fully hardened. But before that time there is always the series of opportunities God has given each of us who have ever lived to adulthood to repent and turn to Him.

Helen (or Barry, whoever would like to respond),

According to Romans 9:14-18, why did God continue to harden Pharoah's heart and for what purpose did God raise him up for his fall and destruction?

Also, are you saying that you believe that lost mankind seeks God outside the drawing of the Holy Spirit, or are you denying the effectual call of God?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Helen]

many are called...few are chosen. How effectual is that?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

many are called...few are chosen. How effectual is that?

Was that a yes, we are denying the effectual call of God?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Helen]

I'm believing the Bible.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I'm believing the Bible.

Effectual call of God...yes or no? It really is a simple question? Why are you working so hard to avoid answering it?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Helen]

I'm not avoiding anything. I used the Bible to answer you. Is that not enough?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I apologize. I guess I didn't understand your answer. Based on the verse you quoted, would you say yes or no to the doctrine of the effectual call of God?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[El_Guero]

And I think the young man did a much better job than the supposedly seasoned leader, theologian and teacher - if you miss a great training opportunity, you are making a mistake even as a junior leader.

Personally, I like the way this young man witnessed to the best of his ability much more than I like the way 95% of Christians never witness for their Lord and Savior. :thumbsup:

I'm sure the young man pondered his reply and the next time answered, "From sin and from Hell."

Shame that the young man was left to ponder. A leader/mentor would have taken him witnessing and taught him how.

 

[Helen]

I apologize. I guess I didn't understand your answer. Based on the verse you quoted, would you say yes or no to the doctrine of the effectual call of God?

Joseph Botwinick

Well, many are called. Why aren't they all chosen? Does God change His mind?

 

[npetreley]

Well, many are called. Why aren't they all chosen? Does God change His mind?

Look at the context of the verse. It appears twice as the conclusion of two parables. Both parables are about how salvation is not restricted to the Jews. The conclusion is that many [other nations, too, not just the Jews] are called but few [only the elect] are chosen.

Or, put another way (to address your question) God calls all men to repent, because all men should. But only the elect are chosen (which is redundant).

 

[Helen]

Then if all men don't repent, God's call is not effectual?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Nope it is effectual. God saves all his elect (those whom he preordained to be saved by his own sovereign will).

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Helen]

Then why are people told not to harden their hearts, to seek Him, to choose this day whom they will serve? Why does the Bible appear to us normal readers to present a choice, a valid choice, to each and every human being?

By valid, I mean that no presented choice is unavailable to them either because of God's previous choice or their own natures.

Is the Bible lying when we are told to seek, to ask, to knock? Are we being mocked when God asks us to reason with Him so that our sins, which are scarlet will be white as snow? Was Joshua taunting the people from some position of superiority when he told them to choose?

If many are called, why does it not say 'nations'? Whoever the many are, of them, few will be chosen. Why?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Then why are people told not to harden their hearts, to seek Him, to choose this day whom they will serve? Why does the Bible appear to us normal readers to present a choice, a valid choice, to each and every human being?

By valid, I mean that no presented choice is unavailable to them either because of God's previous choice or their own natures.

Is the Bible lying when we are told to seek, to ask, to knock? Are we being mocked when God asks us to reason with Him so that our sins, which are scarlet will be white as snow? Was Joshua taunting the people from some position of superiority when he told them to choose?

If many are called, why does it not say 'nations'? Whoever the many are, of them, few will be chosen. Why?

Helen,

How many times have we had this conversation and you have misrepresented the facts here. Let's try one more time. Just because Jesus makes a command does not mean we will or can keep it. As a matter of fact, he is probably revealing our spiritual deadness even clearer by commanding us to be Holy as God is Holy. We cannot do that. Also, likewise when he tells us to be perfect as God is perfect. we cannot do that. When he tells us to seek God and his kingdom, we cannot do that in our natural spiritually dead state. It is God who regenerates us and brings us to him. It is God who creates faith in the hearts of men. This is not of us, but is the work of God. It is God who makes us Holy. It is Christ who makes us perfect. It is his righteousness that works salvation into the elect. And those whom God predestines, he also justifies, and those whom he justifies, he also sanctifies, and those whom he sanctifies he also glorifies. God's call is always effectual for those whom he elects. There are no instances where God has failed to accomplish in the heart of the elect that which he has sovereignly willed. If there ever were an instance of this, he would not be sovereign and there would be no guarantee whatsoever that he could keep his promises. If it were because of my own will that I was saved, apart from the effectual call of God, it would be my righteousness which saved me, not Christs'. If God's call is not effectual, then God is powerless to keep his promises and is not God at all.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Then why are people told not to harden their hearts, to seek Him, to choose this day whom they will serve? Why does the Bible appear to us normal readers to present a choice, a valid choice, to each and every human being?

By valid, I mean that no presented choice is unavailable to them either because of God's previous choice or their own natures.

I shall let the Bible answer you:

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Helen,

I think one of your major errors is to assume the world's sense of valid and try to enforce that on the sovereign God of all the universe. It seems to me like the same error which Paul addressed here.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[John of Japan]

These presumably saved people don't already know what the Gospel is? And what do they teach you in order to help you give it clearly? Can you teach something like that? I thought it was more a matter of God opening the ears of the listener rather than teachers sharpening the mouths of the speakers.

You would think all believers knew the Gospel, wouldn't you? But in my experience they do not--or at least they don't pay attention to what they are doing in their evangelism. I believe we should teach exactly what the Gospel is to avoid the following errors: having witnesses who make people think it is prayer that saves you; having people think they are believing in a dead man (the Gospel include's Christ's resurrection, vitally important here in Japan where they worship dead people); having people who are being witnessed to think that baptism is important in salvation (a real problem in Japan with so-called Christians in the main line churches). And there are other errors that a clear lesson on the Gospel can prevent.

How do you teach someone to be filled with the Holy Spirit and have God's power? This is not a smart-ss question, I really want to know if they teach this and how.

This would be a whole 'nother thread. I highly recommend The Holy Spirit: Who He Is and What He Does, by R. A. Torrey on this. This book had a wonderful influence on my life and ministry. To make it simple:
(1) Every case of the Holy Spirit's power in the Bible was for service to the Lord.
(2) Absolute commitment is necessary.
(3) Prayer for God's power is necessary.
(4) Belief in God's provision of that power is necessary.

How do you teach someone to be filled with compassion for sinners?

By teaching them to walk with God day by day, and thus grow gradually into the image of Christ.

How do you teach someone to hate sin?

This is the only one that makes sense to me so far. I can see how you can teach people to pray for God to be at work. They may not do it, but I can see how you can teach people that this is something they should do, and it is certainly within our ability to do it. But, for example, I don't see how you can teach people to hate sin. Maybe you can tell them that if they are true believers they should hate sin, and why, but I don't see how you can teach them how to do it. I would add, however, that people aren't the enemy (Ephesians 6).

Teaching about sin, in my view, is necessary for any class on personal evangelism because of the atonement of Christ. "Hate the sin and love the sinner" is a Biblical principle for personal evangelism, I believe. If you can ever find a book by Dr. Walter L. Wilson, a medical doctor who was used wonderfully by God as a personal witness, you will see this in his life, I believe.

EDITED TO ADD: My questions aren't rhetorical. I would really like answers. However, if I taught a class on evangelism it would probably be REALLY short. IMO, it is very simple. Witnessing implies that you are a witness. You have seen something they haven't seen, and you're telling them what you've seen. Other than that, I'd tell them study the Bible. Know it. Then I'd stop teaching evangelism and start a Bible study.

The Japanese textbook I wrote for use in the class I have taught in two Bible institutes here would be titled in English, The Evangelism Anyone Can Do. The title is based on exactly what you have written, that anyone can witness if they simply tell others how they themselves got saved. However, there are enough mistaken methods of evangelism out there that I think an actual class is a wonderful help. Besides, studying personal evangelism is studying the Bible.:thumbs:

Here are the titles of the chapters of my textbook:
The Importance of Personal Evangelism
You, Too, Can Witness
Our Message (about the Gospel)
The Great Commission of Jesus
Practical Personal Evangelism
Right After Salvation (how to talk about assurance)
Followup
The Order of Personal Evangelism
The Holy Spirit and the Personal Worker
Some Hints for the Personal Worker

Many years ago the Baptists in Japan were passing out a tract written by a Conservative Baptist pastor because it looked nice and it was free. I had gotten into the habit of reading through the tracts I passed out, because some of them were very poor, and I wanted to do my best for Jesus. This particular tract turned out to have the statement in it, "If you love God and your neighbor, you will go to Heaven!" I pointed this out to a fellow missionary and he was shocked. He had had a Japanese pastor read the tract for him, and his church had been passing out 1000's of these without knowing the content!!

If we are going to do this very precious work for Jesus, I believe we should do it carefully and prayerfully, not in a haphazard way. The Gospels and the book of Acts is so full of how God used His people to do this work, I think we should study it all of our lives even as we practice it. :type:

 

[John of Japan]

And I think the young man did a much better job than the supposedly seasoned leader, theologian and teacher - if you miss a great training opportunity, you are making a mistake even as a junior leader.

Shame that the young man was left to ponder. A leader/mentor would have taken him witnessing and taught him how.

I agree completely! :thumbs:

 

[Helen]

Joseph, go look at the context of 'be ye perfect...'

Secondly, you answered none of my questions but simply repeated what you always say. Please, I asked a series of questions. If you cannot answer them, say so.

Lastly, the Jesus I know and love and worship does not command the impossible. He actually loves all of us and will enable anyone who wants to follow Him to be able to.

God did not 'kidnap' us and force us to be married to His Son. We are, however, the bride. It is a love relationship. Love is a two-way street in this sort of relationship. We love because He first loved us, true. But, nevertheless, not all of those He loves have chosen to love Him back. And THAT is the crux of the matter.

Many are called; few are chosen. Why?

And if it is so totally beyond our ability to comprehend, why would God ever invite people to reason with Him? Why would He instruct us to seek Him?

Your concept of predestination is not only unbiblical, it denegrates God's character, denies the love and total atonement of Christ on the Cross, and makes mockery of much of the Bible.

 

[Brother Bob]

only those that believe are chosen. The Lord always put belief and faith in the Scriptures why does some want to always leave it out?