See folks this is what Calvinism does. It creates this self pride that sets the Calvinist up higher than all others. Calvinism is not humbling but full of pride and arrogance. It makes one think they are higher and smarter than all others. The caginess of Calvinists is not, in fact, from being angry over not having their so called knowledge before. This Calvinists caginess is a result of pride and arrogance. The post quoted above is a prime example of that.
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Arguments Against Calvinism...
- Thread starter steaver
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See folks this is what Calvinism does. It creates this self pride that sets the Calvinist up higher than all others. Calvinism is not humbling but full of pride and arrogance. It makes one think they are higher and smarter than all others. The caginess of Calvinists is not, in fact, from being angry over not having their so called knowledge before. This Calvinists caginess is a result of pride and arrogance. The post quoted above is a prime example of that.
you really have won nothing Steve.....but if it makes you feel better to attempt to justify yourself then go ahead. See what you have done is called attention to Calvinism so you are going to get people who once didn't even consider it valid to now take a look at it. You have noticed of course that many of these same folks who first were non Calvinists (EVEN ANIMANETLY OPPOSED TO IT) are now its staunchest defenders, so have you ever asked yourself why? Therein should lie your problem..... see, your efforts to silence the movement is having a reverse effect.
ahhh folks......please note 'IM NOT A CALVINIST'----:laugh:
Yea sure your not.
so you are now the self appointed "Calvinist Police" .... LOL. BTW isn't it you who is the Lordship Salvation Supporter......Hmmmmmm!
so you are now the self appointed "Calvinist Police" .... LOL. BTW isn't it you who is the Lordship Salvation Supporter......Hmmmmmm!
Do you hold to irresistable grace? Do you hold to the idea that God created men of whom He will never offer grace to in order to be saved?
What does LS have to do with this thread?
I hold to the position that you would have to be insane to not select salvation after grace is given to you....so that's not irresistible, its brain damage. I also believe that God can do what He wants to, that I don't know His total plan. So does those two stances make me a Calvinist?
Ive also observed that most who identify as card carrying Calvinists also hold to Lordship Salvation. So are you a Calvinist? :laugh:
PS: I believe that feet washing is an ordinance given to us by Christ.....now what am I? :laugh:
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I hold to the position that you would have to be insane to not select salvation after grace is given to you....so that's not irresistible, its brain damage. I also believe that God can do what He wants to, that I don't know His total plan. So does those two stances make me a Calvinist?
Ive also observed that most who identify as card carrying Calvinists also hold to Lordship Salvation. So are you a Calvinist? :laugh:
PS: I believe that feet washing is an ordinance given to us by Christ.....now what am I? :laugh:
You are a Feet-washing Lordship Salvation Calvinist Independent Baptist.
This caricature is not helpful. It reinforces stereotypes and obfuscates the truth. There is a difference between pride and a passion for the truth. I do not know whether Calvinism is humbling or not. I do not not where it is full of pride or not. I do not know whether it is full of arrogance or not. People are humble. People are prideful. People are arrogant. People just happen to be found in all types of "isms". The same with "caginess" as you put it. That is not unique to any "ism". People, across the entire theological spectrum, are cagey. Not every person, mind you, just those that are.
With many years of ministry under my belt I happen to know many Christians (Monergists and Synergists alike) that are kind, thoughtful, considerate, compassionate, selfless et. al. I know many who are prideful, arrogant, condescending, and narcissistic. Are we to draw a conclusion from a particular "ism" in Christianity that it is more prone to negative traits? I do not think so. You take people one at a time.
It is the Lord Jesus Christ whom continues to vindicate me as I study to show myself approved, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I cannot persuade everyone, but I can do my part which I am called to do...For I am His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that I should walk in them.
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
PreachTony
Active Member
You are a Feet-washing Lordship Salvation Calvinist Independent Baptist.
You're going to need an extra-large business card to fit that title... :smilewinkgrin:
Actually Calvinism is widely known for these very things. Any google search will show that it is even accepted among reformed folks, admitted too, and discussions on how to handle it to include folks like John Piper.
You are a Feet-washing Lordship Salvation Calvinist Independent Baptist.
I dont buy into LS. :smilewinkgrin:
convicted1
Guest
You need to take 'stock' in it, imo. :smilewinkgrin: :wavey:
PreachTony
Active Member
I don't buy into it, either, EWF. Jesus is already Lord over everything, so how can I make Him Lord over my life. Instead, through salvation and the blessing of grace, I can come recognize that He is indeed Lord over everything. Perhaps Bro. Willis has a different take on Lordship Salvation than the one I'm accustomed to, but my experience with LS is that it functions essentially as a works-based salvation. You have to keep doing certain things and acting certain ways in order to maintain your salvation.
I would actually argue that a newly-minted Christian, someone just taking their first steps in the faith, would likely be turned off to God by Lordship Salvation and the requirements that LSers tend to tout. LS requires commitments that still-on-the-milk Christians simply cannot perform until they have a greater hold on both their faith and their doctrine.
What do you mean by Take Stock in it? I am a USA Grade A Born Again. I have been given new life & with that a conscience, but I am still a sinner....and its not like I go outa my way to sin, but it happens. Each time it does I learn something....like how much I dislike it, what I am doing to myself & others ....with the end result that I am ashamed & disgusted by it. Does that make me a phony christian....no, I dont think so. What I am is a Christian saved by grace & "EVOLVING" into a different guy. Eventually I will break these sick & evil habits Ive accumulated over the years.....the point is, I have Christ as my Lord & Savior & "Mentor" to look to in order to change my life. I am NOT perfected, not yet.
However some people would suggest that I'm a phony & false as a Christian....not so. And this is what my interpretation of LS is. It weighs heavy on the side of Justice but not so much on the side of Mercy.....which is probably my objection to Calvinism if truth be told.
Tony, this statement makes no sense. That is exactly the argument of LS proponents. It is the free grace side that believes one can accept Jesus as savior but not as Lord.
PreachTony said:
I cannot respond to anecdotal accounts ("my experience") because they are subjective to the person. I will tell you that LS is not a works-based salvation. If it were anyone who holds to it is not a Christian. LS salvation does not believe salvation is of works. LS believes that Christians, to greater or lesser degrees, will bear fruit in their life (Mat. 5:16; Eph, 2:10). Regeneration results in a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). Old behaviors have been replaced by new behaviors. This does not mean a new convert is going to be mature in his walk. Far from it. We are all a work in progress (Phil. 1:6). But it does mean that the new convert, indwelt by the Spirit, will be oriented towards God as opposed to oriented towards Satan and sin (Eph. 2:2-3). In fact, if there is no evidence of this new creation, with new affections, there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
PreachTony said:
You do not get to make this baseless type of accusation unless you can back it up with with empirical data - not conjecture or anecdotal stories.
PreachTony
Active Member
Reformed - I can only relate to you personal experience, as that's all I have. My church, and none of the other churches local to me that I would visit, stress Lordship Salvation. In my discussions with people who do support LS, they treat it as a works-based salvation, in that you have to show works to maintain your salvation. Perhaps they are telling me an incorrect form of LS, and if so, then I'll have learned something.
As for your last paragraph, how many people on this board, outside of the Greek-heavy fellows in the translation forum, do you think will actually be able to provide a lot of in-depth "empirical data?" We're a discussion board, not a academic forum. We all use anecdotal evidence because that is the evidence most readily applied to our own understanding.
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