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arguments calvinists should not use

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Aki, May 19, 2003.

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  1. Aki

    Aki Member

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    i think a more important question is: is decreeing and causing totally the same?

    i think not. consider Adam. God knew that he will disobey. yet God did not cause him to. but then God decreed that Adam will truly make his decision to disobey, which God foreknows since eternity past.

    indeed, God decrees what happens. and yes, God controls history - but not volition.

    God in His sovereignty chose to respect man's volition.
     
    #21 Aki, Jun 22, 2003
  2. Felix

    Felix Member

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    How is this statement different from God decreeing everything that comes to pass?

    How can God CONTROL History without controling volition?

    Yours truly

    Pardi [​IMG]
     
    #22 Felix, Jun 23, 2003
  3. Aki

    Aki Member

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    it is no different, really, upon the context that God made sure that Adam will make his own decision. but when you say that God caused Adam to choose to disobey, then we come to get different.

    just as you said, we have an awesome God! not only is He sovereign, He is also omniscient and omnipotent. God could use everything and combination of everything to control history while respecting man's volition.

    however, are you saying that God caused Adam to sin? it's tantamount to saying God is the author of sin, you know.
     
    #23 Aki, Jun 23, 2003
  4. Aki

    Aki Member

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    one more thing, Felix:

    consider God's prohibition to Adam:

    notice here that God prohibited Adam to eat of the fruit. if, according to your line of reasoning, God controlled Adam's volition and did eat of the fruit, then God would have violated His own will.
     
    #24 Aki, Jun 23, 2003
  5. Felix

    Felix Member

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    Dear Aki,

    You are confusing Adams nature before the fall with our current fallen and sinful condition. I believe Adams will was free before the fall, however as a consequence of his disobediance his and our entire nature (including our wills) have been corrupted and we all are enslaved to and dead in sin. We can not do otherwise but sin and that continually (See Gen 6:5). That is why the Lord Jesus said that if He frees us, we will be free indeed.

    In no way do I suggest that God is the author of sin in any way! But what Scripture says is that He can (and does) control man's wills!! (Psalm 135:6, Proverbs 21:1). If it was otherwise, Calvary could have just been forseen by God and not decreed, which is contrary to Scripture (Acts 4:28). [Can you imagine what would have happened if the Jewish leaders chose not to crucify our Lord...I don't even want to think about it]
    There is just no way to get around that.

    In Christ

    Pardi
     
    #25 Felix, Jun 23, 2003
  6. Aki

    Aki Member

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    Pardi [​IMG]

    do you mean that God did not control Adam's will then? and that God only forknew what Adam will decide rather than cause it?

    did God cause Adam to sin then? if yes, God authored sin, as He authored salvation. no way around.

    God caused the Calvary to happen. and God has the ability to control man's volition, if He wills to. however, did God will for Adam to disobey? no! in fact, God forbid him. there is no way to get around that either.

    taken, man does not really have free will after the fall. in fact, scripture say that man is wicked. God does not want man in that state though. if God is causing man to be in that state, then God is contradicting His own will.

    your example is on Calvary, where men crucified Jesus Christ. how about when a christian sins. did God cause him too? no! otherwise, God will be violating His own will. but God decrees that christians will make their decisions. that is what God decreed - not actually what christians will decide. the same is the case for Adam.
     
    #26 Aki, Jun 23, 2003
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