• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

arguments calvinists should not use

Aki

Member
Does God's foreknowledge determine what He decrees or does God's decree determine what He foreknows?
i think a more important question is: is decreeing and causing totally the same?

i think not. consider Adam. God knew that he will disobey. yet God did not cause him to. but then God decreed that Adam will truly make his decision to disobey, which God foreknows since eternity past.

indeed, God decrees what happens. and yes, God controls history - but not volition.

God in His sovereignty chose to respect man's volition.
 

Felix

Member
God decreed that Adam will truly make his decision to disobey, which God foreknows since eternity past.
How is this statement different from God decreeing everything that comes to pass?

God decrees what happens. and yes, God controls history - but not volition.
How can God CONTROL History without controling volition?

Yours truly

Pardi
wavey.gif
 

Aki

Member
Originally posted by Felix Pardi:
How is this statement different from God decreeing everything that comes to pass?
it is no different, really, upon the context that God made sure that Adam will make his own decision. but when you say that God caused Adam to choose to disobey, then we come to get different.

Originally posted by Felix Pardi:
How can God CONTROL History without controling volition?
just as you said, we have an awesome God! not only is He sovereign, He is also omniscient and omnipotent. God could use everything and combination of everything to control history while respecting man's volition.

however, are you saying that God caused Adam to sin? it's tantamount to saying God is the author of sin, you know.
 

Aki

Member
one more thing, Felix:

consider God's prohibition to Adam:

Gen 2:16-17 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
notice here that God prohibited Adam to eat of the fruit. if, according to your line of reasoning, God controlled Adam's volition and did eat of the fruit, then God would have violated His own will.
 

Felix

Member
Dear Aki,

You are confusing Adams nature before the fall with our current fallen and sinful condition. I believe Adams will was free before the fall, however as a consequence of his disobediance his and our entire nature (including our wills) have been corrupted and we all are enslaved to and dead in sin. We can not do otherwise but sin and that continually (See Gen 6:5). That is why the Lord Jesus said that if He frees us, we will be free indeed.

In no way do I suggest that God is the author of sin in any way! But what Scripture says is that He can (and does) control man's wills!! (Psalm 135:6, Proverbs 21:1). If it was otherwise, Calvary could have just been forseen by God and not decreed, which is contrary to Scripture (Acts 4:28). [Can you imagine what would have happened if the Jewish leaders chose not to crucify our Lord...I don't even want to think about it]
There is just no way to get around that.

In Christ

Pardi
 

Aki

Member
Pardi


Originally posted by Pardi:
I believe Adams will was free before the fall
do you mean that God did not control Adam's will then? and that God only forknew what Adam will decide rather than cause it?

Originally posted by Pardi:
In no way do I suggest that God is the author of sin in any way! But what Scripture says is that He can (and does) control man's wills!! (Psalm 135:6, Proverbs 21:1).
did God cause Adam to sin then? if yes, God authored sin, as He authored salvation. no way around.

Originally posted by Pardi:
If it was otherwise, Calvary could have just been forseen by God and not decreed, which is contrary to Scripture (Acts 4:28). [Can you imagine what would have happened if the Jewish leaders chose not to crucify our Lord...I don't even want to think about it]
There is just no way to get around that.
God caused the Calvary to happen. and God has the ability to control man's volition, if He wills to. however, did God will for Adam to disobey? no! in fact, God forbid him. there is no way to get around that either.

taken, man does not really have free will after the fall. in fact, scripture say that man is wicked. God does not want man in that state though. if God is causing man to be in that state, then God is contradicting His own will.

your example is on Calvary, where men crucified Jesus Christ. how about when a christian sins. did God cause him too? no! otherwise, God will be violating His own will. but God decrees that christians will make their decisions. that is what God decreed - not actually what christians will decide. the same is the case for Adam.
 
Top