Ariz. gov. vetoes religious rights bill

[Yeshua1]

That's a cop out. We tend to create crises when they are convenient. Scripture doesn't make it a problem. WE do. Let them eat cake!!!( SOmebody was bound to say it!)



He provided food to folks who had a need and witnessed Himself in doing so. Provide a cake for someone who has a need and witness for Christ in doing so.

He would be baking a cake. Not endorsing two gay people and what they do. Now a large part of the evangelical church ENDORSED Mitt Romney for President.

Endorsing a person and their values is completely different from running a business and providing goods and services that are neutral in endorsing anything. Yet a lot of folks in the church didn't seem to have any problem endorsing a man who was 100% against Jesus Christ.

So why the problem with selling someone a good isn't endorsing anything? I think TND put it well with the housebuilding example. Building a house for a gay couple would not be an endorsement of their sin. It would be an endorsement of his business.

If he said I'm gonna build this house for this gay couple and I agree with their homosexual offense, then that's an endorsement. Otherwise he's just selling a house.

You do know that this was the way to the Nazi plan, eh?

And that God Himself discriminated against the gay lifestyle, was he wrong to do that?

 

[Yeshua1]

And the thing is that food is also being provided for every brand of sinner imaginable. You'd have to remove yourself from the world to not sell anything to a sinner. I think such manufactured religious beliefs run contrary to what Christ preached because it's impossible to have such a religious belief and ever sell anything to a nonsinner. So what's really at work when people say a religious belief keeps them from selling something to you?

Religious beliefs aren't necesarrily BIBLICAL.



Precisely. Treat people the way you want to be treated. I'm selling a good. If they want to talk about Jesus, we can do that too. But it reflects very poorly on the Body of Christ that of ALL things we, who are supposed to understand the nature of sin and fallingness, would discriminate against someone because they are sinners.

Would Jesus and paul attend a gay wedding, and cheer for the married couple, even though they just commited abomination in sight of God?

 

[Zaac]

You do know that this was the way to the Nazi plan, eh?

And that God Himself discriminated against the gay lifestyle, was he wrong to do that?

Discrimination is favoritism. And God hasn't told us to not play favorites to only turn around and do it Himself.

He is against sin PERIOD so go away trying to start your usual tired argument to make the homosexual offense special.

 

[Yeshua1]

Practically, yes. But the law doesn't look at the practical. The law looks at the event through the lens of the law. You didn't said, "It's because you're gay." That is the key in court. If he's asked, "Did he tell you he couldn't bake the cake because you're gay," he has to respond, "No." And if you've got the sign up in your shop, that's all that need be done. Cases of this nature have been upheld by U.S. courts for nearly 50 years.

It means people have to change the way they proceed to the point of sale, too. I'm not sure I've ever been told "Sure!" right off the bat. How does the service provider know I'm not about to ask him for "a cake" the size and shape of an Abrams tank, for the convention in town next week that I'm planning the food and entertainment for? He has to ask questions, and he may not be prepared to bake a cake the size and shape of an Abrams tank.

The baker should ask, "what kind of event, where, etc?" This gives him/her any number of reasons to turn down the business. No one just jumps in with "Sure!" Not if they're smart. That simple little word is a commitment. No one should be committing to anything until they know what the job is.

I've got a small home building business on the side. It's something I did right out of the military, working for my ex-father-in-law and then going out on my own. I love the business. I like the smell of wood, the process of turning a hole in the ground into a house. So I've kept my hand in. It paid for my Masters.

When someone comes to me asking me to build for them, I want to see their plans, if they have any. It may not be where I want to build, it may not be the style I want to build, it may be I will find out, in talking to them, that they are one of those impossible customers that all home builders detest, and I'm comfortable enough to turn down a job if I think it's going to be a pain in my gluteus maximus. So I ask questions, I want concepts, I pick their brain, and in the end, for any reason, I can say "No, I don't think I can help you." I give them the name of a couple other builders, and that's the end of it. I could do the same -- though I've never been presented with the situation -- if it was a gay couple. No, I wouldn't have a problem building for a gay couple, particularly since the close working partnership of a builder and a buyer gives me opportunity to show them love and tolerance so they come away with a much better impression about Christians. But using my approach, I still don't have to accept the job. Maybe I see they are militant, and don't want to hear what a Christian has to say. I can say "No," and no one's feelings are hurt.

If bakers, photographers, etc., aren't doing business that way, then they get what they deserve. No one should say "Sure!" right off the bat. Get information. Then decide whether you want the job. And if you do it right, and have the sign up, no one can sue.

Again, the laws proposed in Arizona and Kansas were the worst sort of Jim Crow laws against gays. And we, as Christian, were going to put ourselves out front as endorsing them. Terrible idea. Terrible witness. Not something we want, as the body of Christ, to do.

WRONG!

the law was to uphold religious convictions and beliefs!

I CANNOT support not servicing Gays or anyone else due to having them, but CAN chose NOT to condone and support them with business such as catering gay marriages for example!

You are buying the liberal media viewpoint on this law, not the real one!

 

[Zaac]

The govt is now saying that we cannot do that, for if they ask us to cater for them, we HAVE to do that!

Where has the government said this? I want to see where the government tells a businessman who says my schedule does not allow time to do this you STILL have to do it.

 

[annsni]

In this instance you would know about the gay wedding. But if you were a baker, surely you must admit that you are providing food for gay people on a practically daily basis, but you don't necessarily know it. In these instances you would also be sinning. What do you do then?

Or suppose after years of selling baked goods to a loyal customer you learn they are gay. Are you going to quit selling to them?

I'm not speaking about providing a service to a gay person but providing a service for a gay wedding. BIG difference.

 

[annsni]

Put up a sign in your shop, "We reserve our right to refuse service to anyone," then ask questions before saying "Sure!" to anything or anyone. How hard is that?

Because it will still be brought to court because of the homosexual agenda to make everyone agree with them. Trust me - even if you were to not serve them because of another reason, the climate is such today that you will be taken to court.

 

[Zaac]

WRONG!

the law was to uphold religious convictions and beliefs!

How does a law uphold religious convictions and beliefs? People do that.

I CANNOT support not servicing Gays or anyone else due to having them, but CAN chose NOT to condone and support them with business such as catering gay marriages for example!

Then you do you. It opens the door for somebody else to grab that niche business and hopefully they will love on them and share the Gospel with somebody.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

What if it was a stoner wedding ? Should a Christian bake shop be forced to make a cake shaped like a bong ? With pot leaf garnishing ? It is legal, now.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Because it will still be brought to court because of the homosexual agenda to make everyone agree with them. Trust me - even if you were to not serve them because of another reason, the climate is such today that you will be taken to court.

Then so be it. I've fulfilled the law. that's all I have to do. If I lose in the courtroom of a liberal judge, I will appeal until it is overturned. And it will be. One last time: We have the legal right to refuse service to anyone. It is the law of the land, time- and case-tested multiple times for almost 50 years. We don't need another law that most assuredly will be thrown out as discriminatory and "Jim Crow" in the not-too-distant future.

There is coming a time, Ann, when the laws will be turned on their heads and we will be persecuted, discriminated against, lied about, arrested. Don't expect the courts to protect us then. Be thankful there is a way, for the time being, that we are protected now. The quicker we appear as narrow-minded, discriminatory, bigoted -- as this law would have made us look -- the sooner that former scenario will come down hard on us. It is inevitable. Don't hasten the persecution.

 

[Zaac]

Would Jesus and paul attend a gay wedding, and cheer for the married couple, even though they just commited abomination in sight of God?

What Christian businessman has been commanded to attend a gay wedding? What on earth are you talking about?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

WRONG!

Nope. Absolutely right.

the law was to uphold religious convictions and beliefs!

By duplicating rights we already have in the "we reserve the right to deny service" statute, and by creating Jim Crow laws aimed at gays. Is that the legacy you want?

I CANNOT support not servicing Gays or anyone else due to having them, but CAN chose NOT to condone and support them with business such as catering gay marriages for example!

And you have that right now without making yourself appear bigoted.

You are buying the liberal media viewpoint on this law, not the real one!

Oh, c'mon! You've seen my posts for nearly a year. I'm a liberal, or even "buying into" anything liberal? What a crock!

 

[Zaac]

What if it was a stoner wedding ? Should a Christian bake shop be forced to make a cake shaped like a bong ? With pot leaf garnishing ? It is legal, now.

Just say all my bongs tend to end up looking like crosses. :laugh: What are they gonna do? Go tell the police that they demanded a bong shaped cake and you delivered one that looked like a Cross after you told them you couldn't do a bong shaped cake yet they still demanded it? :laugh:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Then so be it. I've fulfilled the law. that's all I have to do. If I lose in the courtroom of a liberal judge, I will appeal until it is overturned. And it will be. One last time: We have the legal right to refuse service to anyone. It is the law of the land, time- and case-tested multiple times for almost 50 years. We don't need another law that most assuredly will be thrown out as discriminatory and "Jim Crow" in the not-too-distant future.

There is coming a time, Ann, when the laws will be turned on their heads and we will be persecuted, discriminated against, lied about, arrested. Don't expect the courts to protect us then. Be thankful there is a way, for the time being, that we are protected now. The quicker we appear as narrow-minded, discriminatory, bigoted -- as this law would have made us look -- the sooner that former scenario will come down hard on us. It is inevitable. Don't hasten the persecution.

I appreciate your posts on this thread. You have been balanced, clear, and fact based despite the hysteria.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The govt is now saying that we cannot do that, for if they ask us to cater for them, we HAVE to do that!

Not so at all! This bill would have duplicated the "we reserve our right to refuse service" clause in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Plus, as I've said over and over and over again, it would put us in the position of promoting Jim Crowism and bigotry. The government does not say we can't refuse service! In fact, it endorses our ability to do so. We just have to be careful how we do it, and this law would have promoted carelessness on our part as Christians. Besides, as I said, it would be thrown out as unconstitutional, based on the same rulings that outlawed Jim Crow laws.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Just say all my bongs tend to end up looking like crosses. :laugh: What are they gonna do? Go tell the police that they demanded a bong shaped cake and you delivered one that looked like a Cross after you told them you couldn't do a bong shaped cake yet they still demanded it? :laugh:

Some of us fundies feel crosses are images, and as such, banned. My question is a serious one. What if you were told they wanted marijuana leaf-shaped decorations on a cake ?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Some of us fundies feel crosses are images, and as such, banned. My question is a serious one. What if you were told they wanted marijuana leaf-shaped decorations on a cake ?

Same process. I've found this out before I said "Sure!" So I make a show of looking at my calendar (that's not dishonest, because I'm not going to say, "I don't have time" either) but I do say, "I don't believe I can do this." Give them the name of the head shop/bakery combination across town, say sorry, and thanks, and move on.

 

[Zaac]

Some of us fundies feel crosses are images, and as such, banned. My question is a serious one. What if you were told they wanted marijuana leaf-shaped decorations on a cake ?

Then I'd tell them I'm not skilled at that and they need to find someone else who can give them what they are requesting. As TND said, give them some recommedndations of folks who may be able to make those leavs on the cake and call it a day.

 

[annsni]

What Christian businessman has been commanded to attend a gay wedding? What on earth are you talking about?

http://www.examiner.com/article/christian-photographers-must-shoot-gay-weddings

 

[Yeshua1]

Not so at all! This bill would have duplicated the "we reserve our right to refuse service" clause in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Plus, as I've said over and over and over again, it would put us in the position of promoting Jim Crowism and bigotry. The government does not say we can't refuse service! In fact, it endorses our ability to do so. We just have to be careful how we do it, and this law would have promoted carelessness on our part as Christians. Besides, as I said, it would be thrown out as unconstitutional, based on the same rulings that outlawed Jim Crow laws.

You do know that right now , the statefed Govt in Az can take a chrsitian to court and fine/possible prison if they object to provoding services to gays like catering a wedding, right?

the law was written to keep our right to refuse to do that based upon relious views!