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Arminian Aberrations

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psalms109:31

Active Member
We do things for God because we are saved, not to earn our salvation like those who believe their works save them.

Faith causes action

James 2:
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[Some early manuscripts dead]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[Gen. 15:6] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


We do not need to understand to trust in Jesus, but trust in the Lord and He will direct your path.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
We do things for God because we are saved, not to earn our salvation like those who believe their works save them.

Faith causes action




We do not need to understand to trust in Jesus, but trust in the Lord and He will direct your path.

Bro, respectfully, what does this have to do with the OP, or in answering it?
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Your problem, Charlie, is that you don't believe the Scriptures.
Do hear how childish this sounds?

We both believe our interpretation of the scriptures and statements like this only reflect poorly on you and this board.

Where Paul says the carnal mind is at enmity with God and CANNOT submit to Him
Actually, it says we cannot submit to his law, but you assume that to mean we can't believe in the one who fulfilled the Law for us. And, yes, we are at enmity with God, but why assume, as you do, that a DIVINE message sent with the purpose of bringing reconciliation with enemies is somehow insufficient to do so unless one's enmity is first defused by some other working? It makes little sense and its not biblically founded.

, your argument is that the carnal mind just needs a little outward manipulation.
Beating on that straw-man again I see. If you want to call the powerful Holy Spirit wrought Gospel message sent to make appeal to all the world to be reconciled to God "a little outward manipulation," then knock yourself out. :tear: Sad.

Your "powerful, spirit-wrought gospel" only affects those who are good and wise enough to receive it
No, in my system it affects everyone who hears it by enabling them to come to Christ. It doesn't return void for one single hearer and those who reject it will be judged by those very words.

In your system, however, the gospel is impotent for the mass of humanity, as only the preselected few have their enmity removed so that they can accept the appeal to be reconciled....so God, according to your system, has to virtually reconcile a man so as to make the appeal for reconciliation have any effect....interesting indeed.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Again, you're simply saying the words give life to some—not all who hear it.
I'm not the one who believes in pre-regeneration, so don't impose that standard onto my view please.

I believe the gospel enlightens and empowers those who hear it so that they can freely respond to its appeal. New life (regeneration) comes through faith...as SCRIPTURE says:

John 20:31:
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


The difference? The hearer, not God. Some power there.
Interesting, when the hearer refuses the appeal you insist the difference is the hearer, which is it? Meow!

I think you have a double standard.

Nevertheless, as I've said countless times, and as you have ignored countless more, a gift doesn't have to be effectually applied for the giver to get the credit for giving it. God clearly gives us the means for faith, but if we choose to trade that truth in for a lie then we are truly without defense. To suggest that God didn't grant them what was needed to believe only gives them the perfect defense for their unbelief.
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
It must be a non-cal trait to make a statement then turn around and deny it's validity when the rubber meets the road.

As we can see by the above, "statements" mean nothing, what we "teach" tells the tale.
What we teach is demonstrated in the disciples we make. Otherwise we are not teaching. It's called applying Mt. 28:19, 20 and Acts 20: 28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."
 

DaChaser1

New Member
What confuses this issue is that some don't consider God's 'prevenient' work in sending the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel as either "powerful" or "spiritual" or "sufficient" enough to accomplish its purpose of enabling its hearer to be reconciled to God.

Cals believe it more so than non cals/arms, as we believe that the HS will enable one to DEFINITELY chose Christ, not JUST 50/50 chance!


Tell me, what is more powerful or spiritual than the gospel appeal? Jesus said, "The words I speak to you are spirit and life." And yet there are some that insist His words (the powerful gospel) isn't spiritual or life-giving enough without an additional work of the Spirit.

Ask the OT prophets! Their spoken words were inspired as revelation to God while prophesying from the Lord, yet few listened to them, heeded them!

the Gospel accomplishes exactly its intended purpose, as it brings the elect of God to life in jesus Christ!

Thin that you have to understand that the spiritual heart of sinners are deceitful wicked, not seeking after God, cannot be tamed by god, so that is why he has to do the enabling work to make sure ANY of us will get saved!

jesus died to offer specific salvation unto thom who are the elect of God, not general salvation to sinners who will not be able to receive Christ!
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Actually, it says we cannot submit to his law, but you assume that to mean we can't believe in the one who fulfilled the Law for us.
To believe in God, truly, is to fulfill the First Commandment.

And, yes, we are at enmity with God, but why assume, as you do, that a DIVINE message sent with the purpose of bringing reconciliation with enemies is somehow insufficient to do so unless one's enmity is first defused by some other working?
It's not an assumption. Christ said just that.
Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.​
This, right after He preached the Gospel, and not in parables, that many rejected.

It makes little sense and its not biblically founded.
So thought those who forsook Christ after that saying.

Beating on that straw-man again I see. If you want to call the powerful Holy Spirit wrought Gospel message sent to make appeal to all the world to be reconciled to God "a little outward manipulation," then knock yourself out.
If God does nothing in the heart of a man before he "chooses" to believe, then it was outward. You have no other choice.​

No, in my system it affects everyone who hears it by enabling them to come to Christ. It doesn't return void for one single hearer and those who reject it will be judged by those very words.
You keep saying that, but you're lying. When pressed about this "powerful, spirit wrought" enabling, it turns out that you're describing a man, unchanged, who was presented with a choice, in the exact same way I would put the choice of white milk or chocolate to my daughter. There is no enabling, no power is exercised, no work is being done.

In your system, however, the gospel is impotent for the mass of humanity, as only the preselected few have their enmity removed so that they can accept the appeal to be reconciled....so God, according to your system, has to virtually reconcile a man so as to make the appeal for reconciliation have any effect....interesting indeed.
In my Gospel, which is Christ's Gospel, a man must be born again, and he does not birth himself. Now there is a powerful work of the Spirit. A real one, and one performed not by the will of man.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Icon, I do appreciate your concern, this is an occasion that I feel you are most assuredly "concerned", that which I have posted "thus far" regarding NPP is clearly (to me) not along any lines of theological lines error. I can very confidently and clearly see Paul in Romans taking on the issue of Jewish pride, exclusivism and corruption of mankind creating a works and merit based method of achieving salvation. I can see this with crystal clarity in Pauls message......do I assume that this position is entirely correct, I concede I do not know with all certainty much like I do with derivatives and integrals....NO, but I do NOT see it as some aberrant theological musing.

Also, I just simply do not see HOW you say that such a position leads to works based soteriology.

QF

Are you saying now...that you do not see a problem with NPP/Federal Vision
or Open theism also...is okay to you ???? I am not sure I am understanding you correctly.

Are you saying that both these ideas are okay?
or that you are not sure where the trouble is?
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Rebuttal at Canon of Dordt against Arminian error:



Someone raised this argument concerning the theological thinking of some camps:



In response to this quote, one stated if that is what they think Arminians believe, then he doesn't blame them for rejecting it. But what do they teach? The view above is not as far off from their teachings as one would think.

We have this quote as reflective of Arminian teachings:



I corrected the above statement to reflect what the author intended to say. Here is the correction of the word “without” to “within” made by the author:



SALVATION IS NOT SOLELY OF GOD IN ARMINIAN TEACHING

Notice the statement "it is still within our ability." A contention was made that the above quote should have been left as saying “without” (placing salvation solely upon God alone as is ones “stated” belief) as this would have definitely supported what an Arminian says he believes, that it (salvation) is solely of God. I agree. But, changing the word to “within” shows where we have a contradiction between stated belief and actual teachings. At one point it is denied it is within us and/or conjured up, then later on it is argued to be within us, and that we must “act” or do something. I am certain ones argument is against the term “conjure up” which I can agree with, but the thing is the Arminian still argues it is by choice, or in man, "within his ability" as stated above, and a readily available option regardless of mans fallen state, again; "it's within his ability." This doctrine stems from the false notion of freewill. This is where the departure from salvation resting solely upon God is abandoned for a synergistic view. “Salvation is solely of God after we act?” This is where the main problem came in via Arminius teachings, and one major reason his teachings were rejected at the Canon of Dordt. Remember this was Jacobus Arminius reasoning, his theology was aimed at and against Sovereign God choosing man by Divine appointment. Scripturally it is wholly of God and according to His choosing alone, yet this didn’t sit too well in his thinking, so he sought to insert man into the equation, making man a part of this, and in reality making man the cause. These would argue man is not the cause, but in fact their teaching denies their argument.

Note that salvation is equated to and caused by something we do, specifically upon an act of man, or "within his ability." That to the Arminian is the pivot point. It is accurate to say that salvation of persons is ultimately a result of their choosing rather than being solely of Divine appointment in Arminian thinking.

But the Scriptures say it is not of him (man) that wills, (which is literally “to choose” “chooses”) Romans 9:16. In the context in Romans it is about God showing mercy on whom He wills, and is directly against any part of man in it, including man “willing” it, or “running” for it. Salvation instead is of Divine Appointment, not of man choosing, but clearly in Scriptures it is God Who has chosen us, 1 Thessalonians 1:4; Acts 13:48; 2 Peter 1:10; 2 Timothy 2:8-10; Ephesians 1:4.

THE ARMINIAN ERRANT VIEW OF FAITH

The above errant teaching of Jacobus Arminius has lent itself to many errors concerning faith. Most of these errant teachings on faith reside in Arminian and non-Calvinist camps. One extreme belief, that is completely false is that we have faith residing in us, and being saved is as simple as trusting a bridge we walk on to be safe, and by having mental assent to the Gospel, that belief becomes equated with “saving” faith. This belief stems from an errant view of faith in Arminian theology, "ability within" and from said theologies belief in man’s freewill, which is a denial of the true depraved state of man, and denies man being enslaved as per Christ, not free, John 8.

Is faith a gift, or not? To the Arminian faith is a gift, by statement, and these affirm this by statement. But somehow this faith, this perfect gift of God given to man somehow has a meltdown and fails to accomplish its task and objective within Arminian theology. Why, who thwarted Gods counsel, will and purpose to save whom He wills to save? According to their theology it is now up to man, man again is the cause, the power and cause now is man, "it is within his ability" thus salvation is no longer, in fact it has never been solely God alone in their teaching. In statement? Yes. In teaching? No.

Scripturally, faith is a gift. It is what we refer to as “saving” faith. Faith is not the cause of salvation, but is instead the proof of salvation. But to the Arminian it becomes the cause, not the proof or evidence of salvation. These would state that faith doesn’t save us, that grace does. OK. That’s interesting. But again, look at the teaching, not what they give as statements. According to an Arminian, we, man, have to do something, we have to act, which makes man the cause of salvation, not grace, and makes grace conditional, or received because of, rendering grace no longer free and no longer a gift. The whole entire premise boils down to a theology that is against God Himself doing the choosing and of salvation being solely of God.

ARMINIAN STATEMENTS OF BELIEF ARE NOT FORTHCOMING

The said beliefs of Arminians on the surface sound Scriptural. After looking at what they actually are in fact teaching, we can see that their statements are not at all accurate, and, that they do not factually represent what they really believe.

In each of our “camps” it is not important that we can recite a creed, or that we can state what we believe via statement. We are forgetting something of greater importance. What we actually teach is what we believe, not what we say we believe. First, we should see what we are teaching, and then formulate these teachings into statements. Our apologetic would then be reinforced and be an accurate representation of our true belief system.

OTHER AREAS OF CONCERN

Please share, not only what Arminians say they believe, but show how what they actually teach denies their stated beliefs. Also share how what one says as a statement of belief may not be accurate, or, how we can make a statement of belief while denying it in our actual teachings. Please do not limit your discussion or examples to Arminians only, but also include non-Calvinist's as well.

A quote for thought:




- Peace

Notice this "act upon faith in order to be saved" business that distinguishes the semi-pelagian from the Calvinist.

It is so subtle that I think most of us miss this. It is so subtle that many Calvinists embrace this language of "acting upon your faith in order to be saved." But the fact is that God's Word does not say salvation comes by ACTS we perform but by grace through faith.

Most have heard the chair illustration of faith. They say, "I can stand and look at the chair and believe in it and it not help me at all. It is when I SIT IN IT that it helps me. And so it is with salvation. You can believe (be fully persuaded, to trust in it) that Jesus Christ is Lord but until you ACT upon that faith you are not saved."

I think this is dangerous.

The Bible indicates that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone.

The tricky thing is that it is ABSOLUTELY TRUE that REAL FAITH will cause you to ACT.

But the ACTING is not part of what is required for salvation. The ACTING is ONLY proof that you have been saved by grace alone through faith alone.
 

Don

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In this, I agree with Luke; as it says in Eph 2:10, we are saved unto good works.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
QF

Are you saying now...that you do not see a problem with NPP/Federal Vision
or Open theism also...is okay to you ???? I am not sure I am understanding you correctly.

Are you saying that both these ideas are okay?
or that you are not sure where the trouble is?

I am saying the "brief" that I posted which mentioned the NPP is perfectly acceptable to me. As for OT, I do not consider that to be correct, although, some of the thoughts from Mr. Boyd I concur with. I don't know all the "streams" or interpretations of each NPP or OT.

As for NPP, I am perfectly comfortable with the idea that Paul in Romans is in fact addressing the exclusivism and "works" based corruption plaguing the Jewish religious leaders and nation.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Notice this "act upon faith in order to be saved" business that distinguishes the semi-pelagian from the Calvinist.

It is so subtle that I think most of us miss this. It is so subtle that many Calvinists embrace this language of "acting upon your faith in order to be saved." But the fact is that God's Word does not say salvation comes by ACTS we perform but by grace through faith.

Most have heard the chair illustration of faith. They say, "I can stand and look at the chair and believe in it and it not help me at all. It is when I SIT IN IT that it helps me. And so it is with salvation. You can believe (be fully persuaded, to trust in it) that Jesus Christ is Lord but until you ACT upon that faith you are not saved."

I think this is dangerous.

The Bible indicates that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone.

The tricky thing is that it is ABSOLUTELY TRUE that REAL FAITH will cause you to ACT.

But the ACTING is not part of what is required for salvation. The ACTING is ONLY proof that you have been saved by grace alone through faith alone.

Exactly, it is subtle, and so many are self-deceived. We must go beyond theological statements and look at what others actually teach. Generally in Arminian, non-Calvinist theologies the contradictions are apparent. No one really wants to address the documented facts that reveal these things, it's easier to go on and pretend it doesn't exist when the evidence proves it does. Not only does it exist, its actually taught. It is glaringly apparent why these teachings were condemned. Four hundred years later others are still teaching and embracing the same errant theology.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Notice this "act upon faith in order to be saved" business that distinguishes the semi-pelagian from the Calvinist.
Can you tell us who said that? You put it in quotes so I assume someone actually said that? Or is that your perception of what someone said? If so, can you quote what they said so we can see if you correctly understood what was said?

Thanks.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
To believe in God, truly, is to fulfill the First Commandment.
We couldn't fulfill the law, so God sent Christ to do it on our behalf, we couldn't understand his plan of redemption, so he sent the gospel. You assume His gracious provisions are insufficient. I don't.

We both believe God does something to help us believe, you just believe he does it for a preselected few irresistibly, and I believe he does it for all but it may be rejected. You know, that pesky little distinction you dismiss as being irrelevant?

More later....
 

glfredrick

New Member
Can you tell us who said that? You put it in quotes so I assume someone actually said that? Or is that your perception of what someone said? If so, can you quote what they said so we can see if you correctly understood what was said?

Thanks.

Seems like the last time you asked someone (me, in fact) to demonstrate that someone ACTUALLY wrote something that you disagreed with you failed to respond once demonstrated. Now, you're asking again?

Sticking one's head in the sand is hardly the way to deal with "SOME" of what transpires in the anti-cal movement.

(I will from now forward start calling the movement what it is -- "Anti-Cal" for it is patently obvious now that it is not "pro-" something else -- by Skandelon's own admission -- so it is "anti-" for this position is only against another and those holding this position cannot make a positive statement for their own own doctrine.)
 

glfredrick

New Member
We couldn't fulfill the law, so God sent Christ to do it on our behalf, we couldn't understand his plan of redemption, so he sent the gospel. You assume His gracious provisions are insufficient. I don't.

We both believe God does something to help us believe, you just believe he does it for a preselected few irresistibly, and I believe he does it for all but it may be rejected. You know, that pesky little distinction you dismiss as being irrelevant?

More later....

I am in agreement with you on Christ fulfilling the Law. He did.

We should discuss whether the "gospel" was because "we could not understand" or whether it is what it purports to be in Scripture -- the kerygma of "good news" of what Christ has actually done. You seem to take it from an historical record into some "act" that stands alone as powerful in its own right instead of words that represent actions done by Christ. I suspect a bit of Barth in there somewhere...

And, we do agree that "God does something to help us believe." We seriously disagree on what that "something" is. I suspect for you it is "words" (based on your interpretation of "the gospel" above) while for us it is actual atonement and imputed righteousness, justification, regeneration, adoption, effectual call, and yes, election into all the above.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
This becomes a tired game of prove it, then you do, only to hear a request for proof again. It's obvious one is dodging truth and being duplicitous.

Your ostrich illustration is spot on brother. We know the objective. The evidence is there, yet we're supposed to play pretend as well? I'll pass, as these tactics have been put away in my ministry, 2 Cor. 4:2.

- Peace
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Seems like the last time you asked someone (me, in fact) to demonstrate that someone ACTUALLY wrote something that you disagreed with you failed to respond once demonstrated. Now, you're asking again?

Sticking one's head in the sand is hardly the way to deal with "SOME" of what transpires in the anti-cal movement.

(I will from now forward start calling the movement what it is -- "Anti-Cal" for it is patently obvious now that it is not "pro-" something else -- by Skandelon's own admission -- so it is "anti-" for this position is only against another and those holding this position cannot make a positive statement for their own own doctrine.)
Actually taking something out of context and pressing for an answer you like is not demonstrating anything...but I think we both know that.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Seems like the last time you asked someone (me, in fact) to demonstrate that someone ACTUALLY wrote something that you disagreed with you failed to respond once demonstrated. Now, you're asking again?

Sticking one's head in the sand is hardly the way to deal with "SOME" of what transpires in the anti-cal movement.

(I will from now forward start calling the movement what it is -- "Anti-Cal" for it is patently obvious now that it is not "pro-" something else -- by Skandelon's own admission -- so it is "anti-" for this position is only against another and those holding this position cannot make a positive statement for their own own doctrine.)

OK GL, if so then we will just have to begin the terminology of anti- non - cal, :)
 
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