Arminianism another gospel?

[JamesL]

Jesus said all that the Father gave Me comes to Me. If all the world, 100% of ALL mankind, including those who will never hear His precious name, and they die(d) lost, then He failed.

He also said He lost none of them, either. Again, if He atoned for their sins, even those who never heard His precious name, and they die(d) lost, then not only did He fail, but lied, too. Don't give me a redeemer that weak in ability to save.

Give me Jesus Christ, who WILL save His people from their sins. Not tried and failed to save them who die(d) lost.....


And that is NOT philosphy, but God's word, and He's bound by His word....

If it's God's word that Jesus would be a failure, then produce at least one verse which says it that. If you can't, then it IS philosophy, whether you want to admit it or not.

Btw, I'm speaking about a distinction between the inner man and the outer man.

EVERY person will be raised bodily. And scripture says it is because of Adam that all men die physically, and because of Christ all men will be raised. 1Corinthians 15:21-22 says it plainly.

Do you believe that all men will be raised bodily, or not?

 

[webdog]

Yesterday at the breakfast with the local Calvinist church I was speaking with a brother whom has been a member of the church for years, been a missionary and we chatted for a while. It was quite a encouraging chat, and he knew his stuff and gave a strong recommendation that I get Faith Works of which I bought used. He also was saying that Arminian may get the gospel wrong. Well I believe that they have a man centered gospel, especially since they deny effectual calling (Irresistible Grace) and also believe that man can respond to the gospel without God granting faith and repentance so in effort deny Eph 2:8-10 which says "By Grace are Ye saved."

However I do not necessarily agree that they have another gospel, I told this brother they are just confused and have an elementary understanding on things. I am reading a book by an Arminian IFB pastor (this one someone mailed to me for FREE and no shipping costs) and the author denies sovereignty in salvation, however he does not get the gospel wrong, and makes a strong case for SIN, and Christ's death, and resurrection. But the fallout is his view that man can respond to the gospel if persuaded.

All this is a little confusing, but I can't argue that Arminian have another gospel. Interesting this brother had a respect for Charles Stanley whom does not dodge SIN, HELL, NOR JUDGMENT, so perhaps it may depend on the Arminian as like Calvinist they are not all the same. For example that joker whom wrote that "heaven is for real book" I believe to be a false convert whom has another gospel. He may profess to be Arminian but he is not, and nothing more than a false convert (in my POV). Osteen also may claim to be Arminian but we all know he is not.

how can you claim it's man centered...and also it's not heresy? Anything man centered is heresy. Talking out of both sides of your mouth.

 

[webdog]

If Jesus died for 100% of all men, then Christ is the biggest failure this world will ever know...because he utterly failed to procure salvation for those who He said He died for. A miserable failure 'ee is, I say....

Then He also lied when He said that He lost none His Father gave Him.....but some say He can lie, but chose not to...so their theology is utterly consistent.....wrong....

This is question beggeging, assuming your point as truth and the results of Christ dying for all stemming from your view.

Was every last drop of the Passover lamb's blood used?

You believe God will go an eternity unpaid for the transgressions committed against Him? Finite men paying an infinite penalty for eternity does just that, leaves Him eternally unpaid for the crimes against Him. The true judge of righteousness was eternally paid at Calvary when it was proclaimed it is finished. All sin, death and the curse were satisfied at that moment.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is question beggeging, assuming your point as truth and the results of Christ dying for all stemming from your view.

Was every last drop of the Passover lamb's blood used?

You believe God will go an eternity unpaid for the transgressions committed against Him? Finite men paying an infinite penalty for eternity does just that, leaves Him eternally unpaid for the crimes against Him. The true judge of righteousness was eternally paid at Calvary when it was proclaimed it is finished. All sin, death and the curse were satisfied at that moment.

but ONLY effectual towards the sins of those whom God intended the death of Christ to be paid for!

 

[Rippon]

The true judge of righteousness was eternally paid at Calvary when it was proclaimed it is finished. All sin, death and the curse were satisfied at that moment.

That doesn't make any sense. People are residents of Perdition. God's wrath is still meted out. His judgement still falls.

 

[Revmitchell]

If Jesus died for 100% of all men, then Christ is the biggest failure this world will ever know...because he utterly failed to procure salvation for those who He said He died for. A miserable failure 'ee is, I say....

You guys need to quit saying such crazy things that are just no true.

Then He also lied when He said that He lost none His Father gave Him.....but some say He can lie, but chose not to...so their theology is utterly consistent.....wrong....

What I believe happens here when statements like this are made is that we end up talking past each other.

 

[Rippon]

I will reword his post

Jesus said all that the Father gave Me comes to Me. If all the world, 100% of ALL mankind, including those who will never hear His precious name, and they die lost --then unlimited atonement needs to be abandoned.

He also said He lost none of them, either. Again, if He atoned for their sins, even those who never heard His precious name, and they die lost --then those holding to unlimited atonement need to jettison their biblically untenable theory.

Give me Jesus Christ, who WILL save His people from their sins. Not a poor substitute which does not deliver the biblical goods.


And that is NOT philosophy, but God's word, and He's bound by His word....

The above amendments might be a better way of phrasing things. Convicted, what do you think?

 

[Winman]

how can you claim it's man centered...and also it's not heresy? Anything man centered is heresy. Talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Calvinism is man-centered, it teaches that God chooses persons not "in him" as Ephesians 1:4 says, but "to be in him".

Note that election is in Christ. The elect are chosen to be in Jesus. Everyone chosen by God will be united to the Savior (their federal head and representative) and thus will receive everything merited for them by the Mediator (regeneration, the gift of the Holy Spirit, justification, definitive sanctification, perseverance, glorification). Thus, we see that the ultimate ground of our federal union with Christ is not our faith in Jesus, but rather, our faith in the Savior is ultimately rooted in our federal union with Christ. Although we are not actually justified until we lay hold of Christ by faith in space and time, the gifts of regeneration (Jn. 3:8; Ac. 11:18) and faith (Eph. 2:8) would not be bestowed by Christ without first the divine election of particular sinners.

http://www.entrewave.com/view/reformedonline/Chosen by God.htm

Calvinism teaches that God chooses the MAN. God chooses the man "to be in Jesus". You are not chosen because you believed in Jesus, you were chosen "to believe" in Jesus.

That is not what scripture teaches. Scripture teaches we are chosen "in him", not "to be in him". This is tremendous error.

We are only elect because Jesus is God's chosen one, his elect. When we believe on him we are placed "in him" in time (Rom 16:7).

God in his foreknowledge could foresee those who would believe on Jesus in time "in him". This is the proper view and exalts Jesus as the "chosen one, mine elect".

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

 

[convicted1]

If it's God's word that Jesus would be a failure, then produce at least one verse which says it that. If you can't, then it IS philosophy, whether you want to admit it or not.

If Christ's atonement is bound to redemption, then if He died for all, then His redemption for them failed.

Btw, I'm speaking about a distinction between the inner man and the outer man.

EVERY person will be raised bodily. And scripture says it is because of Adam that all men die physically, and because of Christ all men will be raised. 1Corinthians 15:21-22 says it plainly.

Do you believe that all men will be raised bodily, or not?

Yes, on the last day. His sheep will have glorified bodies....the goats won't...

 

[convicted1]

What I meant by my last post, Brother JamesL is those who enter into that everlasting covenant have received the redeeming of Christ's blood. If Christ died for them and they die(d) lost, He failed to redeem them.

 

[convicted1]

This is question beggeging, assuming your point as truth and the results of Christ dying for all stemming from your view.

Was every last drop of the Passover lamb's blood used?

You believe God will go an eternity unpaid for the transgressions committed against Him? Finite men paying an infinite penalty for eternity does just that, leaves Him eternally unpaid for the crimes against Him. The true judge of righteousness was eternally paid at Calvary when it was proclaimed it is finished. All sin, death and the curse were satisfied at that moment.

No sin will go unpaid for. Either Christ pays the debt, or the lost will.

Sin, death, and the curse was paid for for His sheep. The goats will pay for theirs in torment.

 

[JamesL]

What I meant by my last post, Brother JamesL is those who enter into that everlasting covenant have received the redeeming of Christ's blood. If Christ died for them and they die(d) lost, He failed to redeem them.

Willis,
I know what you meant, and I won't get nit picky if you didn't use the most effective way if conveying it.

But I'm gonna keep asking you, brother. You've gotta gimme one scripture verse that says, in plain language, without reading into it, what you stated.

You said that if Jesus died for someone who ended up lost, then that necessarily means Christ is a failure.

Where is that stated in scripture? Just one verse, and I'll concede. Otherwise, I won't quit hounding you for that one verse.

Scripture clearly says that Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe. Do you believe that scripture, or not?

 

[JamesL]

No sin will go unpaid for. Either Christ pays the debt, or the lost will.

Sin, death, and the curse was paid for for His sheep. The goats will pay for theirs in torment.

Not bodily. In Adam all die physically, but Christ died to redeem the bodies of believers and unbelievers. If His death did not atone for the body, then none will be raised.

But scripture says that all men will be raised. Do believe John 5:28-29, or not?

 

[convicted1]

Willis,
I know what you meant, and I won't get nit picky if you didn't use the most effective way if conveying it.

But I'm gonna keep asking you, brother. You've gotta gimme one scripture verse that says, in plain language, without reading into it, what you stated.

You said that if Jesus died for someone who ended up lost, then that necessarily means Christ is a failure.

Where is that stated in scripture? Just one verse, and I'll concede. Otherwise, I won't quit hounding you for that one verse.

Scripture clearly says that Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe. Do you believe that scripture, or not?

Jesus said all that the Father gives Him comes. If all were given to Him, then myriads don't come, then how did Christ not fail?

 

[convicted1]

Not bodily. In Adam all die physically, but Christ died to redeem the bodies of believers and unbelievers. If His death did not atone for the body, then none will be raised.

Christ redeems the soul, not the flesh, at the point of conversion, that is. The flesh dies as a result of not being redeemed. At the resurrection, the flesh is changed from corruption to incorruption, from weakness to power, from dishonor to honor.

But scripture says that all men will be raised. Do believe John 5:28-29, or not?

Yes.

ETA....what I mean is at conversion, the soul is clothed in Christ's righteousness. The physical body still has the stain of sin all over it, and it dies due to that. The converted soul never dies, it's taken to God to never taste death.

 

[JamesL]

Jesus said all that the Father gives Him comes. If all were given to Him, then myriads don't come, then how did Christ not fail?

I don't believe anyone said tat all men were given to Christ. Can you quote exactly what you're referencing?

Christ redeems the soul, not the flesh, at the point of conversion, that is. The flesh dies as a result of not being redeemed. At the resurrection, the flesh is changed from corruption to incorruption, from weakness to power, from dishonor to honor.

But there is also a future redemption, not only the one at conversion

Romans 8:23 says that we are waiting for the redemption of the body.

Ephesians 4:30 says that believers are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Do you believe these scriptures, or not?

 

[convicted1]

I don't believe anyone said tat all men were given to Christ. Can you quote exactly what you're referencing?

Wouldn't universal atonement fall under that umbrella?

But there is also a future redemption, not only the one at conversion

Romans 8:23 says that we are waiting for the redemption of the body.

Ephesians 4:30 says that believers are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Do you believe these scriptures, or not?

Of course. I edited my previous post whilst you were posting my last one. Please reread and reply, if I am not clear enough....

 

[JamesL]

I edited my previous post whilst you were posting my last one. Please reread and reply, if I am not clear enough....

that does help. Thanks

ETA....what I mean is at conversion, the soul is clothed in Christ's righteousness. The physical body still has the stain of sin all over it, and it dies due to that. The converted soul never dies, it's taken to God to never taste death.

No, Willis. The soul is not "clothed" in the righteousness of Christ. Read Hebrews 9-10. Christ came for a better ministry. The blood of bulls and goats "clothed" or covered sins. But the blood of Jesus REMOVES sin.


Hebrews 10:
4 - For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

11 - Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins

14 - For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

22 - let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience

Jesus' blood washes away our sins. The inner man is washed in regeneration (Titus 3:5)


However, the Greek word for regeneration in Titus 3:5 is used in one other place - Matthew 19:28, where Jesus says "in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne..."

He is clearly talking about the resurrection, for it is when He returns that we will be resurrrected, and He sits on His glorious throne.

The point is that Titus 3:5 says that regeneration as a washing. In that context, the inner man is already saved by this washing

But Matt 19:28, speaking of the resurrection, uses the same word - regeneration, a washing.


The physical body will be washed at the resurrection, just like the inner man is at conversion.

We don't have to wait for the inner man to be cleansed, it has been perfected for all time. That is why Paul said "It is no longer I who do it, but sin in me, that is, in my flesh....Who will save me from this body of death? Thanks be to Christ Jesus..."

Wouldn't universal atonement fall under that umbrella?

I think you're asking if universal atonement would mean that every man was given to Christ? Not at all. 1Timothy 4:10 says:

we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

How dies this make any sense at all, that He is the Savior of all men? And what about the phrase "especially of believers" ??

He died to save every man. Even unbelievers will be saved in one sense - in physical resurrection, they will be saved from annihilation. And this redemption of their physical body required the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Nobody is simply "given" a resurrection body apart from atonement. It is this same sin-wrecked body which dies, that will be raised and washed.

Our bodies will be cleansed, not simply "changed"

Thus, His atonement is not limited to believers only, because the atonement is not limited to the inner man. It is only because of His atonement that the body is redeemed - believer and unbeliever alike

 

[convicted1]

I agree that His blood cleanses us. But it also blots them out. It's when we're clothed in Christ's righteousness, God sees us through His Son. The wedding garment we get is Christ's righteousness. The Prodigal Son's father gave him the best robe, a picture of what I'm conveying. It's like God referred to Adam & Eve as "Adam", Adam being the head of their covenant. God saw Eve through Adam, her head...see 1 Cor. 11. He sees the bride through the husband....they are no longer twain, but one flesh.

When we're saved, we're His bride, and we're one w/Christ, and God sees us through Jesus, our Husband.

 

[convicted1]

The blood of bulls & goats didn't clothe their sins, either. It merely pushed them ahead, year-to-year. There was a rememberance of their sin every year, too. It Jeremiah 31, and Hebrews 8 & 10, it says their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Christ's righteosness covers our sins, blots them out, washes them away.