Arminianism & Calvinism issue to split over?

[Yeshua1]

Yes we know, calvinists are big victims.

Its predestined that way!

 

[Reynolds]

That is exactly backwards. The Canons of Dort were a response to the Remonstrance, not the other way around.

The Canons of Dort were indeed a response to the Remonstrance. The Remonstrance was a compilation by the followers of Arminius that outlined his Critical thoughts on the teaching of Calvin.
Calvin's teaching came first, that of Arminius second.

 

[Reynolds]

Who (other than you) has claimed "Calvinists" are "big victims?"

Everybody is a victim. We are living in a generation of snowflakes.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Canons of Dort were indeed a response to the Remonstrance. The Remonstrance was a compilation by the followers of Arminius that outlined his Critical thoughts on the teaching of Calvin.
Calvin's teaching came first, that of Arminius second.

And that of actual calvinism in Dort, Confessions 1647/1689 etc!

 

[Yeshua1]

Anyone, any Baptist that embraces Calvin, and predestination does not know, is ignorant of:
Calvin, his life and persecution of protestants
His teachings in addition to predestination
The scripture regarding the nature of God
The scripture regarding man and eternal life.

This OP is like trying to justify Obama with Trump today

Wrong! Calvinists once again respect calvin as a gifted teacher and theologian, but the doctrines we hold with derive from scriptures themselves!
Would be like comparing you to Finney, the guy who some claimed as Arm, but was really super free will!

 

[TCassidy]

The Remonstrance was a compilation by the followers of Arminius that outlined his Critical thoughts on the teaching of Calvin.

Well, actually, no. The Remonstrance went much much farther than James Arminius. Arminius was a 4 point "calvinist" in that he agreed with all which later because the "points" or "Heads of Doctrine" of what is (wrongly) called "calvinism" except "Unconditional Election." Arminius believed Election was based on God's foreknowledge of a person's eventual faith in Christ. The Remonstrance goes way, way beyond that disagreement.

Calvin's teaching came first, that of Arminius second.

I agree. Calvin believed what the bible teaches about Soteriology, which predates what both Arminius and the Remonstrance taught.

 

[loDebar]

Wrong! Calvinists once again respect calvin as a gifted teacher and theologian, but the doctrines we hold with derive from scriptures themselves!
Would be like comparing you to Finney, the guy who some claimed as Arm, but was really super free will!

Why would you follow this guy?

Calvin declares that "infants cannot be deprived of it[baptism] without open violation of the will of God"(Inst.4, 16, 8).

In 5 years as magistrate of the Geneva “church-city-state,” Calvin oversaw 58 death sentences and the exile of 76 people. He wasn't the sole decision-maker in those cases, but personal correspondence and city council records betray his extraordinary influence. When Jacques Gruet, a theologian with differing views, placed a letter in Calvin’s pulpit calling him a hypocrite, he was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547. Gruet's own theological book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch.

Michael Servetus, a Spaniard, physician, scientist and Bible scholar, suffered a worse fate. He was Calvin's longtime friend who resisted the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. However, he angered Calvin by returning a copy of Calvin's Institutes with critical comments in the margins. The next time Servetus attended Calvin's Sunday preaching service on a visit, Calvin had him arrested and charged with heresy. The 38 official charges included rejection of the Trinity and infant baptism. Servetus pleaded to be beheaded instead of the more brutal method of burning at the stake, but Calvin and the city council refused the quicker death method.

The idea of a limited God is insulting to Him,

Job 36:22-24. "God's power is unlimited. He needs no teachers to guide or correct him. Others have praised God for what he has done, so join with them."

Rom 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shalltribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Scripture cannot contradict scripture nor assault the character of God,

Calvin was wrong, an inept exercise to understand scripture

 

[loDebar]

"About the month of January 1546, a member of the Little Council, Pierre Ameaux, asserted that Calvin was nothing but a wicked man - who was preaching false doctrine. Calvin felt that his authority as an interpreter of the Word of God was being attacked: he so completely identified his own ministry with the will of God that he considered Ameaux's words as an insult to the honour of Christ. The Magistrates offered to make the culprit beg Calvin's pardon on bended knees before the Council of the Two Hundred, but Calvin found this insufficient. On April 8, Ameaux was sentenced to walk all round the town, dressed only in a shirt, bareheaded and carrying a lighted torch in his hand, and after that to present himself before the tribunal and cry to God for mercy" (F. Wendel, Calvin, pp. 85, 86)

Martin Luther said of Calvin's actions in Geneva, "With a death sentence they solve all argumentation" (Juergan L. Neve, A History of Christian Thought, vol. I, p. 285).

what would we call Calvin today?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ohhhh....here we go again

 

[atpollard]

Why is the Arminianism/Calvinism debate so heated? I've seen numerous videos/articles of even Pastors from the Arminian side calling Calvinism evil or satanic. (i'm sure this happens the other way around too). Using such language just brings animosity and division between fellow Christian brothers and sisters. It is fine to disagree, but this goes beyond this.

Both Arminianism and Calvinism Believe that;
1) Only some shall be saved, others will be justly punished
2) Salvation only comes from Grace through Faith
3)Saved only through Jesus death and resurrection.

Do you think that this is an issue that a church/denomination should split over?

It seems a better issue to split over than the color of the new carpeting in the sanctuary, and not as good of a reason as a pastor deciding all of the stories of Jesus are allegorical rather than historical.

The small independent Pentecostal church that I attend with a Pastor raised Moravian and former (Particular) Southern Baptist preachers as members and guest preachers has managed to coexist with strong Arminians and strong Calvinists in the same church and in the same bible study. Each side starts with scripture, explains what they believe it is saying, listens while those of differing opinions express their interpretation.

The Moravian Church motto comes in handy ... "In essentials unity. In non-essentials liberty. In all things charity."

Passions run high because this issue may not be essential to salvation, but understanding the Love, Justice, Mercy and Holiness of God (and how they balance and agree) is not "nothing".

 

[atpollard]

Assuming I knew every aspect and nuance of Classical Arminianism. Assume I knew every word of every text ever written on the subject. Most Calvinists would still call me ignorant due to the fact I was not a Calvinist. No amount of learning would be sufficient because I am not a Calvinist.

Yeah, but that's because if you really read the bible you would see that God is a Calvinist ...

[Hey, I was just kidding. ... Did I mention that my "spiritual gift" was being a trouble maker?]

 

[Yeshua1]

Why would you follow this guy?

Calvin declares that "infants cannot be deprived of it[baptism] without open violation of the will of God"(Inst.4, 16, 8).

In 5 years as magistrate of the Geneva “church-city-state,” Calvin oversaw 58 death sentences and the exile of 76 people. He wasn't the sole decision-maker in those cases, but personal correspondence and city council records betray his extraordinary influence. When Jacques Gruet, a theologian with differing views, placed a letter in Calvin’s pulpit calling him a hypocrite, he was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547. Gruet's own theological book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch.

Michael Servetus, a Spaniard, physician, scientist and Bible scholar, suffered a worse fate. He was Calvin's longtime friend who resisted the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. However, he angered Calvin by returning a copy of Calvin's Institutes with critical comments in the margins. The next time Servetus attended Calvin's Sunday preaching service on a visit, Calvin had him arrested and charged with heresy. The 38 official charges included rejection of the Trinity and infant baptism. Servetus pleaded to be beheaded instead of the more brutal method of burning at the stake, but Calvin and the city council refused the quicker death method.

The idea of a limited God is insulting to Him,

Job 36:22-24. "God's power is unlimited. He needs no teachers to guide or correct him. Others have praised God for what he has done, so join with them."

Rom 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shalltribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Scripture cannot contradict scripture nor assault the character of God,

Calvin was wrong, an inept exercise to understand scripture

I personally know NO calvinists who follow Calvin, but all I know obey and follow Jesus!

 

[Mikey]

Everybody is a victim. We are living in a generation of snowflakes.

Sad but true

 

[The Archangel]

"About the month of January 1546, a member of the Little Council, Pierre Ameaux, asserted that Calvin was nothing but a wicked man - who was preaching false doctrine. Calvin felt that his authority as an interpreter of the Word of God was being attacked: he so completely identified his own ministry with the will of God that he considered Ameaux's words as an insult to the honour of Christ. The Magistrates offered to make the culprit beg Calvin's pardon on bended knees before the Council of the Two Hundred, but Calvin found this insufficient. On April 8, Ameaux was sentenced to walk all round the town, dressed only in a shirt, bareheaded and carrying a lighted torch in his hand, and after that to present himself before the tribunal and cry to God for mercy" (F. Wendel, Calvin, pp. 85, 86)

Martin Luther said of Calvin's actions in Geneva, "With a death sentence they solve all argumentation" (Juergan L. Neve, A History of Christian Thought, vol. I, p. 285).

what would we call Calvin today?

By this same metric, you should discard all of Peter and Paul's writings in the New Testament. Paul was a murderer and Peter denied Christ. Now, you might say something to the effect of "that was before they were true believers." That would be true, but neither man was perfect after his conversion--and it would be hard to argue that Peter was totally unregenerate when he denied Christ.

You're committing the grave error of assuming that Calvinists follow Calvin. We don't. I, for one, have never read Calvin at length. My conclusions about salvation (which some refer to as "Calvinism") come from Scripture, not Calvin. And, I know I have vast disagreements with Calvin on many issues--like baptism.

You should at least attempt a fair critique of we who call ourselves "Calvinists."

The Archangel

 

[atpollard]

what would we call Calvin today?

A law and order candidate.
(... or "Mister Calvin" to his face.)

 

[Mikey]

Why would you follow this guy?

Calvin declares that "infants cannot be deprived of it[baptism] without open violation of the will of God"(Inst.4, 16, 8).

In 5 years as magistrate of the Geneva “church-city-state,” Calvin oversaw 58 death sentences and the exile of 76 people. He wasn't the sole decision-maker in those cases, but personal correspondence and city council records betray his extraordinary influence. When Jacques Gruet, a theologian with differing views, placed a letter in Calvin’s pulpit calling him a hypocrite, he was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547. Gruet's own theological book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch.

Michael Servetus, a Spaniard, physician, scientist and Bible scholar, suffered a worse fate. He was Calvin's longtime friend who resisted the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. However, he angered Calvin by returning a copy of Calvin's Institutes with critical comments in the margins. The next time Servetus attended Calvin's Sunday preaching service on a visit, Calvin had him arrested and charged with heresy. The 38 official charges included rejection of the Trinity and infant baptism. Servetus pleaded to be beheaded instead of the more brutal method of burning at the stake, but Calvin and the city council refused the quicker death method.

The idea of a limited God is insulting to Him,

Job 36:22-24. "God's power is unlimited. He needs no teachers to guide or correct him. Others have praised God for what he has done, so join with them."

Rom 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shalltribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Scripture cannot contradict scripture nor assault the character of God,

Calvin was wrong, an inept exercise to understand scripture

Calvin was wrong certainly, he is fallen just like the rest of us. But this shouldn't mean that we throw out the baby with the bath water.( i'm sure there's a pun somewhere in here)

 

[TCassidy]

Why would you follow this guy?

Well, Duh! Nobody follows Cauvin.

 

[Yeshua1]

By this same metric, you should discard all of Peter and Paul's writings in the New Testament. Paul was a murderer and Peter denied Christ. Now, you might say something to the effect of "that was before they were true believers." That would be true, but neither man was perfect after his conversion--and it would be hard to argue that Peter was totally unregenerate when he denied Christ.

You're committing the grave error of assuming that Calvinists follow Calvin. We don't. I, for one, have never read Calvin at length. My conclusions about salvation (which some refer to as "Calvinism") come from Scripture, not Calvin. And, I know I have vast disagreements with Calvin on many issues--like baptism.

You should at least attempt a fair critique of we who call ourselves "Calvinists."

The Archangel

people should realise that they are sub grouops within Calvinism, as there are Reformed Baptists, Calvinistic Ones, and within that are those holding to TULIP, covenant, new covenant, etc!

 

[Yeshua1]

Calvin was wrong certainly, he is fallen just like the rest of us. But this shouldn't mean that we throw out the baby with the bath water.( i'm sure there's a pun somewhere in here)

He was spot on regarding Sotierology, but the rest, hit and miss!

 

[TCassidy]

Everybody is a victim.

I'm not. I am a Victor! I have Victory in Christ.