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Arminianism & Calvinism issue to split over?
- Thread starter Mikey
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Your ignorance of baptist history is appalling. Particular Baptists date back to the early 1600s in England and earlier on the Continent.
All early Baptists in the US were Particular Baptists and that continued until the so-called second "great awakening" when the heretical preaching of Charles Finney and his "governmental view" of the Atonement corrupted the doctrinal understanding of many lay persons and more than a few preachers.
"Perhaps the closest modern-day successor to Pelagius was Charles Finney. Like Pelagius, he denied original sin saying, “Moral depravity is sin itself, and not the cause of sin.” He believed the whole notion of a sinful nature is “anti-scriptural and nonsensical dogma” and taught that we are all born in a state of moral neutrality, able to choose between good and evil—to choose between being good or being sinful." - Tim Challies
"No single man is more responsible for the distortion of Christian truth in our age than Charles Grandison Finney." - Michael Horton
The Theology Of Charles G. Finney by B B Warfield:
The Theology Of Charles G. Finney | Monergism
The bad theology of Finney seems to alive and well today in some churches and groups!
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree, but to me there's far more to it:
With respect, my research into the history of "Calvinism" and "Arminianism" since the time of the Reformation indicates that, at least in the Netherlands, it all started with the Belgic Confession of 1561...which then prompted a reply by Jakob Hermanszoon's followers after his death in 1609, called the Remonstrance of 1610.
This was followed by the Synod of Dordrecht which took place from late 1618 to May of 1619 leading to the development of the so-called "Five Points of Calvinism" ( which wasn't even called that until some years after ), which were a point-for-point reply to the "Five Articles of the Remonstrants".
I agree as far as that local history is concerned.
The idea that man plays a part in cooperating in salvation entered as early as 418 with Pelagius at the Council of Carthage, and was struck down again in 529 at the Second Council of Orange with "Semi-Pelagianism"...so the history of what Jakob Hermanszoon's followers adopted, and that would later develop into Wesleyan "Arminianism", was already long established as biblical error, in my estimation.
John Calvin ( born Jean Cauvin in 1509, died 1564 ) was, among several others including William Farel, responsible for "Calvinism" taking root and flourishing in Geneva during the mid-1500's. Totally independent of this, William Tyndale and others in England read the Bible for themselves and came to the same, if not similar conclusions during roughly that same time period.
Of note is the fact that Tyndale, who would be responsible for the first translation of the Bible into English from Greek and Hebrew texts ( rather than the Latin Vulgate ), was imprisoned in 1535, and strangled with his body then being burned at the stake by the governmental authorities in October, 1536...which means that he was in prison when Calvin's "Institutes" was published in March of 1536.
Whether or not he had access to it is unknown, but most likely he didn't...ultimately, it is unimportant, as "The Obedience of a Christian Man" was published in 1528, a full 8 years before Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion". So, it is statistically impossible for John Calvin to have influenced William Tyndale's writings in any way, since Calvin was at school studying law at the University of Bourges in 1529, and his conversion is estimated to have been sometime in 1533...only two years before Tyndale's imprisonment at Antwerp.
The point is, many men have read the Bible and seen God's absolute grace through election to salvation, and have written and spoken about it. They have then suffered for it their entire lives, and eventually, at least during the Reformation, been cursed or been killed for it, or both.
Am I the least bit surprised that it is hated so much, especially today?
Not in the least.
So, who "started it?"
I don't care.
What I care about is what God's word actually says, and because of what I see and believe, I'm in a very small minority...and the nature of what is found in this thread alone is why I stopped "going to church" altogether.
The very real fact of there being someone who hates "Calvinism" as a pastor over a group of believers, and then probably having me thrown out of the "membership", caused me to withdraw quietly some 11 years ago...and unless something changes in the mess called "church" near me, I will never darken the doorway of such an establishment ever again. In my area of some 350,000 people, there are over 300 "churches"...with probably all of 3 of them being Baptist and teaching ( or even whispering about ) "Calvinism".
From now until the day I die ( barring the Lord leading me to something ), I will gratefully worship the Lord in solitary, with occasional fellowship and assembling together with a few close friends who read the Bible for themselves and see it as I do.
That, Mikey, is what it's like to be a "Calvinist".
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My statement addressed current Baptists
Hyper Calvinism is mainly taught today
Dave G
Well-Known Member
God reserved 2/3 of the contingent of angels to Himself, thereby keeping them from falling with Lucifer...in case you didn't get a clear answer before.
May God bless you sir.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
GOD
God kept 2/3 from sinning?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
He does it for people, too:
" I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." ( Romans 11:1-6 )
Out of all mankind, there is a remnant according to the election of grace...God's choosing of sinners out of the mass of humanity for Himself, leaving the rest to be judged in His wrath. The problem for us is, only God knows who they are ( 2 Timothy 2:19 ).
So, if you're a preacher of the Gospel, it's a wide world out there.
" I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." ( Romans 11:1-6 )
Out of all mankind, there is a remnant according to the election of grace...God's choosing of sinners out of the mass of humanity for Himself, leaving the rest to be judged in His wrath. The problem for us is, only God knows who they are ( 2 Timothy 2:19 ).
So, if you're a preacher of the Gospel, it's a wide world out there.
My mother around 8 years old got up one morning and started to go to church by herself. Her parents didn’t go and she later found out that the Baptist church she went to didn’t really want her attending. She has been a lifelong Baptist - mostly Southern Baptist. She briefly went to Catholic church since that is where she was married. She now goes to Methodist and Baptist church on Sunday. Shhe is one of the few women her age to get a college degree. She never heard of the terms but thought that predestination was hogwash and people were taking verses from the bible completely out of context.
First, if you really want to argue it, you’ll should get off you high horses and stop using the terms Armenianism and Calvanism. Most Christians don’t know what the terms mean and part of the stupid arguement will be about what they mean. Argue the individual points.
Several predestination Baptist churches in the 1800s to condemned other non-predestination Baptist churches to Hell for not believing in predestination.
Marty
First, if you really want to argue it, you’ll should get off you high horses and stop using the terms Armenianism and Calvanism. Most Christians don’t know what the terms mean and part of the stupid arguement will be about what they mean. Argue the individual points.
Several predestination Baptist churches in the 1800s to condemned other non-predestination Baptist churches to Hell for not believing in predestination.
Marty
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Marty.
I don't like using the terms anyway. I prefer to discuss the Scriptures and keep from labeling people. But, admittedly, they are handy pigeonholes to reference.
Most of the time I find that people like me get called a "Calvinist", more than the other way around, but that's just my view of the whole thing.
Yeah, I think it's easy to condemn people for not believing something that took God 25 years to start showing me...so I try real hard not to.
Perhaps you should
.Ever since I have been on here there has been a big stew between the Calvinist and the Arminian or Cal or Non Cal brethren... Well I have a suggestion from now on just refer to the Calvinist as the TULIP brethren... Brother Glen
There are some Presbyterians that put great store on his sermons and preaching. But worship...ahh no.
I have... interesting guyPerhaps you should
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