Arminianism & Calvinism issue to split over?

[TCassidy]

My statement addressed current Baptists

Then you are still badly uninformed. A large, and growing, percentage of the SBC now identify themselves as supporting or leaning toward the Founders Movement.

Whole associations of Baptists, and their educational institutions, identify with Particular Redemption.

 

[loDebar]

Then you are still badly uninformed. A large, and growing, percentage of the SBC now identify themselves as supporting or leaning toward the Founders Movement.

Whole associations of Baptists, and their educational institutions, identify with Particular Redemption.

Sorry to hear error spreading

 

[loDebar]

Your ignorance of baptist history is appalling. Particular Baptists date back to the early 1600s in England and earlier on the Continent.

All early Baptists in the US were Particular Baptists and that continued until the so-called second "great awakening" when the heretical preaching of Charles Finney and his "governmental view" of the Atonement corrupted the doctrinal understanding of many lay persons and more than a few preachers.

"Perhaps the closest modern-day successor to Pelagius was Charles Finney. Like Pelagius, he denied original sin saying, “Moral depravity is sin itself, and not the cause of sin.” He believed the whole notion of a sinful nature is “anti-scriptural and nonsensical dogma” and taught that we are all born in a state of moral neutrality, able to choose between good and evil—to choose between being good or being sinful." - Tim Challies

"No single man is more responsible for the distortion of Christian truth in our age than Charles Grandison Finney." - Michael Horton

The Theology Of Charles G. Finney by B B Warfield:
The Theology Of Charles G. Finney | Monergism

that is not distortion, inherited sin is a trick of the devil

 

[loDebar]

Sorry to hear error spreading

A smaller number of liberal churches did form a convention in 1980;s .I knew of their more liberal views but did not know of their Calvinism , there is less than 1000. There is still 15 million Southern Baptists as General Baptists

 

[JonC]

I'm not. I am a Victor! I have Victory in Christ.

Speaking of Christus Victor .......a Presbyterian, a Lutheran, and a Mennonite walk into a bar....

 

[loDebar]

These verses are part of the basis for Calvin's predestination-elect error
Rom 8:28
¶
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to beconformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The overall subject of conversation is " the called according to his purpose"

1. He did foreknow, know before proginōskō

2. did predestinate, to predetermine, decide beforehand proorizō to become the image of His Son (not for salvation)

3. called to invite kaleō

4. justified to render righteous or such he ought to be dikaioō

5 glorified to honour, do honour to, hold in honour doxazō

note 1: The called He knew before .

note 2: He predestined (God chose place and time to put a sinner) those to be a human. Jesus is the express image of God, man is in the same physical image. Jesus had a body prepared for Him, you did too.

note 3: He called, invited for salvation
0
note 4 He justified a legal notation for those who answered the call

note 5 He glorified those He justified (All glory is given back to God for saving us)

note 6 How can one be predestined (as the Calvins believe in election) BEFORE the are CALLED to Salvation?

note 7 the image of His Son cannot be Christian maturity because it is before one is justified

 

[JonC]

Ever since I have been on here there has been a big stew between the Calvinist and the Arminian or Cal or Non Cal brethren... Well I have a suggestion from now on just refer to the Calvinist as the TULIP brethren... Brother Glen

All drawings I see of Calvin picture him with a long beard. More importantly, same is true of Beza. But every drawing I see of James Arminius pictures him with a goatee and mustache. I say from now on let's use terms like "Hairy" and "Goatee". Those who don't fit we'll call "Stubbles". We can add "breathern" if it makes you feel better.

 

[SovereignGrace]

There is a huge difference between being ignorant and being evil.

I am ignorant of many things. The areas of knowledge I find to be interesting I try to be as informed as possible, but in those other areas I admit I am largely ignorant.

What I am not, is evil. Nor is the Sovereignty of God evil. Nor are the canons of dort evil.

A person who is ignorant can remedy that ignorance through study. Evil is a whole different order of magnitude.

I saw that comment, and that's not the first time he typed it. I just let it go. No need in it. Let him think whatever...

 

[SovereignGrace]

Your ignorance of baptist history is appalling. Particular Baptists date back to the early 1600s in England and earlier on the Continent.

All early Baptists in the US were Particular Baptists and that continued until the so-called second "great awakening" when the heretical preaching of Charles Finney and his "governmental view" of the Atonement corrupted the doctrinal understanding of many lay persons and more than a few preachers.

"Perhaps the closest modern-day successor to Pelagius was Charles Finney. Like Pelagius, he denied original sin saying, “Moral depravity is sin itself, and not the cause of sin.” He believed the whole notion of a sinful nature is “anti-scriptural and nonsensical dogma” and taught that we are all born in a state of moral neutrality, able to choose between good and evil—to choose between being good or being sinful." - Tim Challies

"No single man is more responsible for the distortion of Christian truth in our age than Charles Grandison Finney." - Michael Horton

The Theology Of Charles G. Finney by B B Warfield:
The Theology Of Charles G. Finney | Monergism

Also, didn't Finney lie when he was ordained as a Presbyterian minister? No way did he hold to their theology. Seems I read he was an ordained Presbyterian minister. Is that true?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Then you are still badly uninformed. A large, and growing, percentage of the SBC now identify themselves as supporting or leaning toward the Founders Movement.

Whole associations of Baptists, and their educational institutions, identify with Particular Redemption.

FBC Williamson(West Virginia) is going reformed. It helps when their Pastor came from SBTS.

I live ~30-40 minutes from there.

Doctrinal Statement

 

[JonC]

Also, didn't Finney lie when he was ordained as a Presbyterian minister? No way did he hold to their theology. Seems I read he was an ordained Presbyterian minister. Is that true?

I thought he was a Presbyterian minister as well.

 

[TCassidy]

Is that true?

Yes, he was Presbyterian. I am not sure how the Session tolerated him.

 

[TCassidy]

Speaking of Christus Victor .......a Presbyterian, a Lutheran, and a Mennonite walk into a bar....

Did you hear about the magician who walked down the street and turned into a drug store?

 

[Dave G]

 

[Dave G]

How can one be predestined (as the Calvins believe in election) BEFORE the are CALLED to Salvation?

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: " ( Ephesians 1:3-9 )

Because His word says it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sorry to hear error spreading

What error is spreading?

That we aver a cross that actually saves, whereas your side avers a cross that only makes ppl savable?

That we aver that the Christ rose for our(the elect) justification, or that He rose for everybody, but only those who do their part are justified?

Or is it that we believe He gave His life for the sheep[John 10:11] whereas your side says He died for everybody indiscriminately?

Looks like the error is on your side not ours.


So, PLEASE stop spreading it!!

 

[tyndale1946]

What error is spreading?

That we aver a cross that actually saves, whereas your side avers a cross that only makes ppl savable?

That we aver that the Christ rose for our(the elect) justification, or that He rose for everybody, but only those who do their part are justified?

Or is it that we believe He gave His life for the sheep[John 10:11] whereas your side says He died for everybody indiscriminately?

Looks like the error is on your side not ours.


So, PLEASE stop spreading it!!

He's Baaaaaaaaack!... Brother Glen

 

[SovereignGrace]

He's Baaaaaaaaack!... Brother Glen

An Admin took care of my problem. I was asking for my account to be retired because I saw something so egregious I knew if I didn't leave, I'd say some things I would regret later. But that problem, they graciously took care of.

 

[The Archangel]

Rarely does one see so hamfisted an attempt at ??egesis as this!

These verses are part of the basis for Calvin's predestination-elect error
Rom 8:28
¶
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to beconformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The overall subject of conversation is " the called according to his purpose"

1. He did foreknow, know before proginōskō

2. did predestinate, to predetermine, decide beforehand proorizō to become the image of His Son (not for salvation)

3. called to invite kaleō

4. justified to render righteous or such he ought to be dikaioō

5 glorified to honour, do honour to, hold in honour doxazō

note 1: The called He knew before .

note 2: He predestined (God chose place and time to put a sinner) those to be a human. Jesus is the express image of God, man is in the same physical image. Jesus had a body prepared for Him, you did too.

note 3: He called, invited for salvation
0
note 4 He justified a legal notation for those who answered the call

note 5 He glorified those He justified (All glory is given back to God for saving us)

note 6 How can one be predestined (as the Calvins believe in election) BEFORE the are CALLED to Salvation?

note 7 the image of His Son cannot be Christian maturity because it is before one is justified

Three things to note:

1. προγινώσκω cannot simply mean "to know beforehand." This word is used only twice in the entire Pauline corpus--Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2. In Romans 11:2, Paul writes: "God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew." The word "foreknew" is, again, προγινώσκω. In Romans 11, προγινώσκω clearly acts an antonym to "reject," therefore giving the meaning "chose" to προγινώσκω. Since Paul uses it this way in Romans 11, it is most likely that he is using that way in Romans 8. So, it does not mean "know beforehand;" it simply means God chose. (Note: This is essentially Tom Schreiner's argument).

2. Your understanding of "called" as not being related to salvation is absurd. The entirety of the passage is describing salvation--or a certain aspect of it. To say this doesn't refer to salvation is to ignore the entire context of the passage (and, perhaps, the entire book of Romans). What is more, how would someone be "conformed to the image of [Christ]" without first being saved? Can the natural man, whose heart desires "only evil continually" (Genesis 6) actually and real-ly look like Christ without a radical heart-level transformation? Of course not.

3. In your "note 6" you have a logical impossibility. You state "All glory is given back to God for saving us" as the meaning of "he glorified." In order for your assertion to be correct, God would have to be said to be glorifying Himself in the text. The text clearly does not refer to God glorifying Himself. Instead, it does say that God glorifies those whom he foreknew, predestined, called, and justified, which is not talking about something He does reflexively.

The Archangel

 

[tyndale1946]

An Admin took care of my problem. I was asking for my account to be retired because I saw something so egregious I knew if I didn't leave, I'd say some things I would regret later. But that problem, they graciously took care of.

Well I told Kentucky that you had flown the coop... Now you two, being hillbilly brethren and all, he said he would miss you, you tattered old rascal... I'm glad to see it was just a problem that was soon rectified... Us old duffers on here have to stick together... Don't scare us like that!... Ok I've had my say... You're free to vent!... Brother Glen