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Arminianism & Calvinism issue to split over?

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Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
loDebar said:
1. He did foreknow, know before proginōskō
Click to expand...

Or more literally, "Before-to-know".


" Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." ( Jeremiah 1:5 )

" Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [it is] he [that] hath made us, and not we ourselves; [we are] his people, and the sheep of his pasture." ( Psalm 100:3 )

" My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth." ( Psalm 139:15 )

" Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them." ( Psalm 139:16 )

" JOD. Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments." ( Psalm 119:73 )



" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:29-30 )

An amazing passage...

It took awhile, but one day I noticed this:

Only those that were foreknown enjoy any of the benefits of the rest. If one is not foreknown of God, then they are not predestinated, called, justified and glorified. One cannot be justified by the blood of Christ if one is not foreknown.

In order for salvation to be available to all men indiscriminately, then He has to foreknow everyone.

Universal salvation.



But that is not what is written.
 
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SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
tyndale1946 said:
Well I told Kentucky that you had flown the coop... Now you two, being hillbilly brethren and all, he said he would miss you, you tattered old rascal... I'm glad to see it was just a problem that was soon rectified... Us old duffers on here have to stick together... Don't scare us like that!... Ok I've had my say... You're free to vent!... Brother Glen:D
Click to expand...

I just didn't want to show a side of me that I would regret showing later. But thankfully, the 'higher-ups' fixed it for me. Kudos to them!
 
T

tyndale1946

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dave Gilbert said:
Or more literally, "Before-to-know".


" Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." ( Jeremiah 1:5 )

" Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [it is] he [that] hath made us, and not we ourselves; [we are] his people, and the sheep of his pasture." ( Psalm 100:3 )

" My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth." ( Psalm 139:15 )

" Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them." ( Psalm 139:16 )

" JOD. Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments." ( Psalm 119:73 )



" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:29-30 )

An amazing passage...

It took awhile, but one day I noticed this:

Only those that were foreknown enjoy any of the benefits of the rest. If one is not foreknown of God, then they are not predestinated, called, justified and glorified. One cannot be justified by the blood of Christ if one is not foreknown.

In order for salvation to be available to all men indiscriminately, then He has to foreknow everyone.

Universal salvation.



But that is not what is written.
Click to expand...

When I think of those verses these come to mind... Brother Glen:)

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

46:12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:

46:13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
 
L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
SovereignGrace said:
What error is spreading?

That we aver a cross that actually saves, whereas your side avers a cross that only makes ppl savable?

That we aver that the Christ rose for our(the elect) justification, or that He rose for everybody, but only those who do their part are justified?

Or is it that we believe He gave His life for the sheep[John 10:11] whereas your side says He died for everybody indiscriminately?

Looks like the error is on your side not ours.


So, PLEASE stop spreading it!!
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If you think God plays favorites, you call God a liar
 
L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
The Archangel said:
Rarely does one see so hamfisted an attempt at ??egesis as this!



Three things to note:

1. προγινώσκω cannot simply mean "to know beforehand." This word is used only twice in the entire Pauline corpus--Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2. In Romans 11:2, Paul writes: "God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew." The word "foreknew" is, again, προγινώσκω. In Romans 11, προγινώσκω clearly acts an antonym to "reject," therefore giving the meaning "chose" to προγινώσκω. Since Paul uses it this way in Romans 11, it is most likely that he is using that way in Romans 8. So, it does not mean "know beforehand;" it simply means God chose. (Note: This is essentially Tom Schreiner's argument).

2. Your understanding of "called" as not being related to salvation is absurd. The entirety of the passage is describing salvation--or a certain aspect of it. To say this doesn't refer to salvation is to ignore the entire context of the passage (and, perhaps, the entire book of Romans). What is more, how would someone be "conformed to the image of [Christ]" without first being saved? Can the natural man, whose heart desires "only evil continually" (Genesis 6) actually and real-ly look like Christ without a radical heart-level transformation? Of course not.

3. In your "note 6" you have a logical impossibility. You state "All glory is given back to God for saving us" as the meaning of "he glorified." In order for your assertion to be correct, God would have to be said to be glorifying Himself in the text. The text clearly does not refer to God glorifying Himself. Instead, it does say that God glorifies those whom he foreknew, predestined, called, and justified, which is not talking about something He does reflexively.

The Archangel
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1. The definition I gave is correct . one of many,

God chose place and time for us to have a body as Christ did
Heb 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

2. My point was exactly What is more, how would someone be "conformed to the image of [Christ]" without first being saved?
one can't
3. We are glorified by being saved but all glory goes to God for saving us. He did not have to save us.

God does not have to look through time, He knew us before we fell

Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
 
L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Dave Gilbert said:
Or more literally, "Before-to-know".


" Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." ( Jeremiah 1:5 )

" Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [it is] he [that] hath made us, and not we ourselves; [we are] his people, and the sheep of his pasture." ( Psalm 100:3 )

" My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth." ( Psalm 139:15 )

" Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them." ( Psalm 139:16 )

" JOD. Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments." ( Psalm 119:73 )



" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:29-30 )

An amazing passage...

It took awhile, but one day I noticed this:

Only those that were foreknown enjoy any of the benefits of the rest. If one is not foreknown of God, then they are not predestinated, called, justified and glorified. One cannot be justified by the blood of Christ if one is not foreknown.

In order for salvation to be available to all men indiscriminately, then He has to foreknow everyone.

Universal salvation.



But that is not what is written.
Click to expand...

God is not limited. He made us individually and knows us each. He created time and it is not a constant.
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
loDebar said:
If you think God plays favorites, you call God a liar
Click to expand...

I never said He did/does. Election has zero to do with Him playing favorites. His election of individuals to salvation has ZERO to do with their credential, because if He did/does, then none would be saved. His election of individuals is based solely upon Himself.[Ephesians 1:11]
 
L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
SovereignGrace said:
I never said He did/does. Election has zero to do with Him playing favorites. His election of individuals to salvation has ZERO to do with their credential, because if He did/does, then none would be saved. His election of individuals is based solely upon Himself.[Ephesians 1:11]
Click to expand...


election to eternal life is favorites

That is how we know it is false
 
L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Mikey said:
he's talking about Israel
Click to expand...
Act 10:33
no, individuals
Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
Act 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Rom 2:6
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11
For there is no respect of persons with God.
 
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