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Arminianism & Calvinism issue to split over?

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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
SovereignGrace said:
What error is spreading?

That we aver a cross that actually saves, whereas your side avers a cross that only makes ppl savable?

That we aver that the Christ rose for our(the elect) justification, or that He rose for everybody, but only those who do their part are justified?

Or is it that we believe He gave His life for the sheep[John 10:11] whereas your side says He died for everybody indiscriminately?

Looks like the error is on your side not ours.


So, PLEASE stop spreading it!!
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he is very confused, as his soteriology not found in the scriptures, and he thinks we all hold to Hyper calvinism! I guess holding to God being sovereign over salvation would seem very extreme to him!
 
The Archangel

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
loDebar said:
1. The definition I gave is correct . one of many,

God chose place and time for us to have a body as Christ did
Heb 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
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Not at all.

The text in Romans is not talking about God choosing a time or place; it is talking about God choosing people. The text clearly says "Those whom He...." In no way does Romans 8:29-30 talk about God foreknowing events; He foreknows people. And, according to Paul's usage just three chapters later, that word means "chose."

loDebar said:
2. My point was exactly What is more, how would someone be "conformed to the image of [Christ]" without first being saved?
one can't
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No, that is not what you said. You said "did predestinate, to predetermine, decide beforehand proorizō to become the image of His Son (not for salvation)" You cannot--at the same time--say that predestination is "not for salvation" and agree with me that predestination is for salvation.

loDebar said:
3.
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loDebar said:
We are glorified by being saved but all glory goes to God for saving us. He did not have to save us.

God does not have to look through time, He knew us before we fell

Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
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I'm not arguing that God is not glorified in our salvation. What I'm arguing is your statement "note 5 He glorified those He justified (All glory is given back to God for saving us)" Of course we glorify God for our salvation. But, Romans 8:30 is clearly talking about God's "glorifying" of man, not man's praising of God.

Again, the term "hamfisted" is appropriate for your efforts.

The Archangel
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
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The Archangel said:
Not at all.

The text in Romans is not talking about God choosing a time or place; it is talking about God choosing people. The text clearly says "Those whom He...." In no way does Romans 8:29-30 talk about God foreknowing events; He foreknows people. And, according to Paul's usage just three chapters later, that word means "chose."



No, that is not what you said. You said "did predestinate, to predetermine, decide beforehand proorizō to become the image of His Son (not for salvation)" You cannot--at the same time--say that predestination is "not for salvation" and agree with me that predestination is for salvation.



I'm not arguing that God is not glorified in our salvation. What I'm arguing is your statement "note 5 He glorified those He justified (All glory is given back to God for saving us)" Of course we glorify God for our salvation. But, Romans 8:30 is clearly talking about God's "glorifying" of man, not man's praising of God.

Again, the term "hamfisted" is appropriate for your efforts.

The Archangel
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Some gey hung up on Foreknowledge, as the biblical term used by Paul denotes God knowing that we are the saved and chosen, due toHim actually being the One that dtermines and causes us to be found in that state, as knowing means that God knows us as indivuals, as one of his sheep of His flock!
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
loDebar said:
I meant most of the Calvinism taught today is HyperCalvinism
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No, as the majority of the Systematic theologies written in the past and today would be high calvinism, but not the Hyper Branch!
Every calvinist hear would see the Gospel must still be prteached to all, as that is the means God ordained to reach out to His elect so that they might hear and believe and get saved!
 
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loDebar

Well-Known Member
The Archangel said:
Not at all.

The text in Romans is not talking about God choosing a time or place; it is talking about God choosing people. The text clearly says "Those whom He...." In no way does Romans 8:29-30 talk about God foreknowing events; He foreknows people. And, according to Paul's usage just three chapters later, that word means "chose."



No, that is not what you said. You said "did predestinate, to predetermine, decide beforehand proorizō to become the image of His Son (not for salvation)" You cannot--at the same time--say that predestination is "not for salvation" and agree with me that predestination is for salvation.



I'm not arguing that God is not glorified in our salvation. What I'm arguing is your statement "note 5 He glorified those He justified (All glory is given back to God for saving us)" Of course we glorify God for our salvation. But, Romans 8:30 is clearly talking about God's "glorifying" of man, not man's praising of God.

Again, the term "hamfisted" is appropriate for your efforts.

The Archangel
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Thank you for the clarification.

It is individuals or the redeemed as a group

Rom 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

God choose a place and time for you, if not you would not be here, undebatable.

he also did predestinate to beconformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

All you are predestined for is to have a body and be here and now

It might appear hamfisted but it is so obvious to me, that it is completely ridiculous.

The entire physical experience is to save sinners, to the glory of God
 
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loDebar

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
No, as the majority of the Systematic theologies written in the past and today would be high calvinism, but not the Hyper Branch!
Every calvinist hear would see the Gospel must still be prteached to all, as that is the means God ordained to reach out to His elect so that they might hear and believe and get saved!
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ok , I group them all as error and do not know the differences, thanks
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
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loDebar said:
ok , I group them all as error and do not know the differences, thanks
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Many have the same confusion as you do, as read a book by Norman Geisler who is very anti calvinist, but his views seem to be confsing Hyper cal as being normal version of it!
 
TCassidy

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
loDebar said:
ok , I group them all as error and do not know the differences, thanks
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So, you don't understand something so you reject it based on your failure to understand it?

I think we may have just seen an example of why you have such disdain for critical reasoning skills!
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
loDebar said:
If you think God plays favorites, you call God a liar
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So God didn’t choose for himself a people (the children of Jacob, called Israel)?
The OT sure seems full of verses about God playing favorites. Ask the citizens of Jericho (oh that’s right, you can’t. God wiped them out to make room for His chosen people.) :)
 
L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
TCassidy said:
So, you don't understand something so you reject it based on your failure to understand it?

I think we may have just seen an example of why you have such disdain for critical reasoning skills!
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Scripture and the character of God demand neither be true. I do not have to understand the difference to know both basically are in error and insult God and in conflict with Baptist teaching.
 
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