Originally posted by Me4Him:
Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he
also
did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of his Son,
"foreknow", ALSO "predestinate".
Why the double adjectives???
I didn't say there wasn't a theological difference between foreknowledge and predestination. I said you had no business lecturing me on that difference, since in a previous thread you claimed that "predestination" was made up by Calvin.
You're saying God "predestined" Adam to sin, but Scriptures says God doesn't tempt man with sin, did God "deliberately" create a perfect world with the intentions of destroying it, or was it a "CHOICE" left up to "man"???
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
Perhaps you could explain why Peter tells these Jew that Jesus was delivered up by God according to His foreknowledge and determined purpose, if it wasn't part of God's plan?
Acts 3:18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
Perhaps you could explain how Peter didn't understand that God wasn't in any way responsible for the "free-will" actions of the men who killed Jesus when he said that God fulfilled the suffering of Jesus.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.
Maybe you could explain how God bruised Him and put Him to grief if He had nothing to do with the "free-will" actions of men.
Calvinists try to balance all of the Scriptures. Men sin because they want to. But every action of man is considered in God's foreordained plan. This is the testimony of Scripture. Again, primary cause (God), secondary causes (men).
That's "exactly" what happen, God planted "Wheat", Satan planted the Tares, but calvin's doctrine can't explain "WHY" God allowed satan to plant the tares in the first place.
So, you are an open theist. You believe that God was surprised by Adam and Eve's sin and had to come up with plan B? That's a very dangerous belief. Calvin's doctrine (biblical Christianity) explains sin the way the Bible does. Man willingly chose to sin and whatever God has foreordained comes to pass to the praise of His glorious grace.
You, on the other hand, in order to "make God fair," want to explain that God created man and Lucifer and stepped back, not sure what would happen. When His deepest fears came true, that Lucifer and man would reject Him, He had to come up with another plan since the first one was messed up.
"WHY" would God give Adam/Eve/Satan the opportunity to destroy his "perfect creations",
Because it was part of His eternal plan.
and "WHY" would God make it possible through Jesus for the wages of sins for the whole world to be paid???
Calvins' doctrine can't answer that question in context of scripture.
God does whatever He does to the praise of the glory of His grace.
Ephesians 1:4-6 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
And neither is it God's fault that the many who are called are not chosen, it's "man's fault". (unbelief)
Pay attention to the tense of verbs in the English text there. Both called and chosen are adjectives in the Greek that are reflexive. It does not say, for many called themselves but few chose themselves because of their unbelief. It says many are called but few are chosen. Who chose? God did.
On the one hand you place the blame on man for being a sinner,
then place the Blame on God/predestination for some men remaining a sinner, when God loved the whole world and sent Jesus, not to condemn, but to die for the sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved.
WRONG. We place the entire blame for sin and for staying in sin on man. God is not to be blamed just because He doesn't go out of His way to save someone who doesn't want it. That, too, is man's fault. God is "blamed" or given credit for the salvation of the elect. This is the testimony of Scripture, not just Calvin.
Like a "pendulum", your doctrine swings from one side to the other.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Everything I have stated has been a direct quote from Scripture. You are the one who uses philosophical arguments to try to say what it might mean for God to be fair.
The Bible says we are predestined. To be saved, "WHERE"?????
How is "adoption as sons" not another phrase for being saved (Eph. 1:5)? What unsaved person is adopted as a son? What unsaved person gets conformed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29)? How is obtaining an inheritance not another phrase for being saved (Eph. 1:11)?
Predestine comes from the Greek word
prohoridzo which means to determine beforehand. In the case of these three verses it involves determining one's destiny. That most certainly involves salvation.
Then perhaps you can explain why God holds a "DEAD/BLIND MAN" accountable for "Falling in the Ditch"???
Mt 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, (Tares,) which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
I don't need to explain it. This passage says they are responsible AND GOD LEAVES THEM ALONE!!! Thank you for giving us a verse that talks about God's reprobation (leaving a sinner in their sin).
As I've said before, Calvin's doctrine isn't "Consistent" throughout the scriptures,
And, yet I can keep quoting Scriptures that support it...
Calvin blame God/predestination for some going to hell,
This just goes to prove that you don't know anything that Calvin or calvinist say. We are clear that the Bible says that men are to blame when they go to hell, not God. God gets the credit when anyone goes to heaven.
while scripture says God made it possible for "ALL MEN" to be saved and only "UNBELIEF" prevent "ALL MEN" from being saved.
1) You didn't give the Scripture that says "God made it possible for all men (every single person who ever lived) to be saved.
2) We don't deny that unbelief prevents people from being saved. We affirm that because the Bible, in fact, does say it.
