Arminians and Sovereignty

[Luke2427]

If they meant what you meant, then they are guilty of borderline blasphemy.



God allowed sin to exist and He is the sovereign ruler of all things. Arminianism upholds the perfect sovereignty of God over all things. It teaches us the biblical truth that God has sovereignty elected to salvation all who will come to faith in Christ. It teaches that we are totally depraved and can do no good without the action of the grace of God in our lives, that only Christ can save, and we in no way contribute to our salvation.

No one with any higher education would call Jonathan Edwards a borderline blasphemer.

God did ordain sin. HE did not sin but he ordered things so that sin would enter the world. That's a Bible fact for which I have provided sufficient Scriptural evidence which you have yet to address.

To deny that God ordained it and oversaw it and controlled it is to deny Sovereignty which is what Arminians do. That's why I started this thread.

Just saying you believe Sovereignty does not mean that you do. Especially when you turn right around and say that he was not in control of the fall and that he is not controlling the events which spawn sin every day.

You can't have it both ways. Either God is Sovereign or he is not. Either he controls it all or he does not. Which is it?

The only alternative is to deny

 

[th1bill]

Is this guy for real???

Yes, did you find a point you wish to discuss?

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Just saying you believe Sovereignty does not mean that you do. Especially when you turn right around and say that he was not in control of the fall and that he is not controlling the events which spawn sin every day.

You can't have it both ways. Either God is Sovereign or he is not. Either he controls it all or he does not. Which is it?

God is sovereign and controls all things. Everything that occurs happens because God causes or allows it to occur. God allowed and perfectly foreknew the fall, but He in no way contributed to it or caused it and He was in perfect control of it.

 

[Luke2427]

God is sovereign and controls all things. Everything that occurs happens because God causes or allows it to occur. God allowed and perfectly foreknew the fall, but He in no way contributed to it or caused it and He was in perfect control of it.

The law of noncontradiction does not allow for what you are saying.

Did he control the events of the fall or not? Did he control the serpent as he tempted Eve? Did he control the jaw muscles that clamped down her mouth on the forbidden fruit? Did he control the muscles of the shoulder and arm of Eve as she extended the fruit to her husband? By what power did those muscles contract?
Was this something they did apart from God? Did they do it out of his control?

If I allow something I am not controlling by virtue of the definition of the word "allow"- it means "to let have".

Either God had control of it or he let them have control over it. If god let them have control of it then he was not controlling it. Thus he was not Sovereign.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Either God had control of it or he let them have control over it. If god[sic] let them have control of it then he was not controlling it. Thus he was not Sovereign.

That is an astounding piece of illogic. God can sovereignty choose to not use some of His power because He is sovereign. You limit God by denying Him the ability to not dictate something but to merely allow it.

 

[Luke2427]

That is an astounding piece of illogic. God can sovereignty choose to not use some of His power because He is sovereign. You limit God by denying Him the ability to not dictate something but to merely allow it.

Now you assault the idea of omnipotence. Omnipotence means "all power". Now either all power is God's power or some of it is not. If some of it is not then God is not omnipotent.

The power to blink your eyes is God's power. If you have the power to blink your own eyes apart from the power of God then God is not omnipotent.

This is why thinking Arminians sometimes become open theists. It is where Arminianism logically leads.

 

[rbell]

Is God completely sovereign? Yes.

Does God allow man to "choose this day whom you will serve?" Yes.

Can we, with our puny six-pound cranial bags of mostly water, reconcile those on this side of eternity? No.

* * * * *​

I look forward to God's explaining it to me on the other side of Glory.

Let me put it another way...you said earlier,

The law of noncontradiction does not allow for what you are saying.

There are concepts that our finite minds cannot hash out. Let's remove ourselves from C/A and discuss eternity for a moment: Our little brains can't really grasp a God who is eternally existent: I mean...How do you explain such a thing? The "law of noncontradiction" does not bind a Sovereign God. I think some concepts are simply above our capacity as finite man to comprehend, explain, or refute them. And thus, we are placed firmly on the route of "faith."

Luke, I have a feeling I'm about to incur your wrath, but you're coming across awfully hostile in this thread. I'm not going to take the "blasphemy" or "heresy" route here, because I have a feeling that on many C/A threads, many BB folk are talking past one another.

But having said that...I think my first three statements (top of this post) summarize my thoughts about as well as I can get them down.

 

[Luke2427]

Is God completely sovereign? Yes.

Does God allow man to "choose this day whom you will serve?" Yes.

Can we, with our puny six-pound cranial bags of mostly water, reconcile those on this side of eternity? No.

* * * * *​

I look forward to God's explaining it to me on the other side of Glory.

Let me put it another way...you said earlier,



There are concepts that our finite minds cannot hash out. Let's remove ourselves from C/A and discuss eternity for a moment: Our little brains can't really grasp a God who is eternally existent: I mean...How do you explain such a thing? The "law of noncontradiction" does not bind a Sovereign God. I think some concepts are simply above our capacity as finite man to comprehend, explain, or refute them. And thus, we are placed firmly on the route of "faith."

Luke, I have a feeling I'm about to incur your wrath, but you're coming across awfully hostile in this thread. I'm not going to take the "blasphemy" or "heresy" route here, because I have a feeling that on many C/A threads, many BB folk are talking past one another.

But having said that...I think my first three statements (top of this post) summarize my thoughts about as well as I can get them down.

Come now, bell. Read this thread. I've been called a blasphemer several times. Let's put this "hostile" business in proper perspective. How would you expect someone with a spine to react? Let's be realistic.

 

[Luke2427]

Is God completely sovereign? Yes.

Does God allow man to "choose this day whom you will serve?" Yes.

Can we, with our puny six-pound cranial bags of mostly water, reconcile those on this side of eternity? No.

No. But God gave us logic. He is a God of order. Noncontradiction is a law of logic that God enables us to understand. We don;t have all the answers but that doesn't mean we can't have any of the answers. Among the answers that we can have are those that logic plainly provides.

Among those is the idea that if God is utterly Sovereign then he is in control of every single thing that happens anywhere in the universe every millisecond. That means that he controls the choices of men as well as the weather.

That is not very hard to understand.

Now, can I understand all of the implications of that? Nope. Don't have to. Just have to be glad that NOTHING happens apart from the absolute, active (not passive) control of the perfect, good, loving, all knowing, all powerful, holy and just God.

Does that make him the direct author of sin? No. Does that mean that creatures' sin is ordained of God? Absolutely. It means that God intended for man to sin and to fall so that he might use it for the highest and greatest of purposes in the universe- his own glory.

I quoted Jonathan Edwards on this matter several posts back. His logic and Scriptural arguments are pretty hard to deny.

 

[Winman]

Among those is the idea that if God is utterly Sovereign then he is in control of every single thing that happens anywhere in the universe every millisecond. That means that he controls the choices of men as well as the weather.

That is not very hard to understand.

There is nothing difficult to understand about your position whatsoever. It is simply error and unscriptural. I just showed you verses in Jeremiah where the Jews were sacrificing their children to Baal in fire. God said he never commanded it, he never spoke it, and it never entered his mind or heart.

God knows what he is saying. If he said this never entered his mind or heart, that is exactly what he meant to say. He never determined or ordained this to happen, men were acting independently of God. God has allowed man this freedom.

You simply refuse to acknowledge what the scriptures clearly say.

 

[psalms109:31]

Love

Ezekiel 28
A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel [ Or Danel ; the Hebrew spelling may suggest a person other than the prophet Daniel.] ?
Is no secret hidden from you?

4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.

5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.

6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,

7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.

8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.

9 Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.

10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [Or lapis lazuli ] turquoise and beryl. [The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain.]
Your settings and mountings [The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain. ] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

I love you brother and I am no one's judge, but a messenger of the hope that is found in Jesus Christ for the world and the salvation is for all that believe (trust) in Jesus Christ over their own understanding and will. I am not saved by my will, but God will to save believers those who trust in His Son

Corinthians 5:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering ] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[Luke2427]

There is nothing difficult to understand about your position whatsoever. It is simply error and unscriptural. I just showed you verses in Jeremiah where the Jews were sacrificing their children to Baal in fire. God said he never commanded it, he never spoke it, and it never entered his mind or heart.

God knows what he is saying. If he said this never entered his mind or heart, that is exactly what he meant to say. He never determined or ordained this to happen, men were acting independently of God. God has allowed man this freedom.

You simply refuse to acknowledge what the scriptures clearly say.

I answered that argument and showed you the error of your interpretation of that passage. Now go back to post 34 and look at the passages I provided and deal with them.

 

[Luke2427]

Ezekiel 28
A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel [ Or Danel ; the Hebrew spelling may suggest a person other than the prophet Daniel.] ?
Is no secret hidden from you?

4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.

5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.

6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,

7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.

8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.

9 Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.

10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [Or lapis lazuli ] turquoise and beryl. [The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain.]
Your settings and mountings [The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain. ] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

I love you brother and I am no one's judge, but a messenger of the hope that is found in Jesus Christ for the world and the salvation is for all that believe (trust) in Jesus Christ over their own understanding and will. I am not saved by my will, but God will to save believers those who trust in His Son

Corinthians 5:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering ] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Are you going to make an argument or just try to catch us all up on our daily Bible reading?

 

[psalms109:31]

Listen and learn

My concern is not for those who don't listen and learn, but for those who do.

No one can teach someone who already knows the answers. I don't have to fit God's sovereignty into my doctrine, but let it speak for it self.

God is going to save who He wants to save and nothing me and you can do about it, but trust in Him and His word. That God will do what He say's He will do.

God bless!!

 

[Luke2427]

God is going to save who He wants to save and nothing me and you can do about it...

Best statement on the thread so far.

 

[webdog]

Are you going to make an argument or just try to catch us all up on our daily Bible reading?

You are extremely arrogant and rude. Have fun stewing in your own theology where God desires evil...you are on an island of your own there.

 

[psalms109:31]

Word

Best statement on the thread so far.

According to His word It is those who believe(trust) in His Son. Men have been trying to change that truth from the day it was spoken and they just can't do it.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

John 6:43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[Isaiah 54:13 ] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[Psalm 32:1,2 ]

I wouldn't be where I am today if it wasn't for many Calvinist influence, but they have not been able to take away from me what God convinced me of in my youth. That God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and He isn't lying. So listen and learn from the Father through the words of Jesus Christ and believe (trust) in Him. I would still be trying to work for my salvation if it wasn't for calvinist influence in my life

Don't worry if you are not the elect or not, just come to Jesus and He will not cast you out.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life.

John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

 

[Luke2427]

You are extremely arrogant and rude. Have fun stewing in your own theology where God desires evil...you are on an island of your own there.

Yea, me and Jonathan Edwards and Charles Spurgeon and John Calvin and Martin Luther, etc...

At least I get to stew with some pretty good eggs! :laugh:

 

[psalms109:31]

Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

2 Peter 1:
Making One's Calling and Election Sure
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[webdog]

Yea, me and Jonathan Edwards and Charles Spurgeon and John Calvin and Martin Luther, etc...

At least I get to stew with some pretty good eggs! :laugh:

Dont' speak for them, they do not hold to the blasphemous notion God desires sin but that God uses all things including sin for His glory.