As I said before, Catholics arent Christians

Then the next question would be how does one know who is actually listening to the Holy Spirit? Anyone can claim they are listening to the Holy Spirit. In fact proponents of contrary interpretations often do claim that theirs is the true Spirit guided interpretation. Since God doesn't contradict Himself (as you rightly point out), how does one objectively determine who is in fact "listening" to the Spirit? (In otherwords, an objective answer would not be: "Well, so-and-so is listening to the Spirit because I happen to agree with his theological viewpoint. ) </font>[/QUOTE]Did you not know Doubting Thomas, that it’s the Pope’s job and that the Independent Fundamental movement is full of little infallible Pope’s, which proclaim from the pulpit that they’re right and everyone else, is in error?

 

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The key word is discernment. There are many "false" christs and "false" teachers in the churches--not just in the Independent Fundamental movement--how about the SBC and the Reform movement? The only standard by which you check these "false" christs and "false" teachers out is by God's Word. (Acts 17:11)

 

Unless you know every Catholic's heart, you have no scriptural authority to say that. I know several Catholics who are born again believers, and as saved as assuredly as you or I. Sure, I can disagree with them on points of doctrine or practice, but I cannot argue their salvation.

 

If you believe that Christianity is a religion, you need to examine your beliefs. Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship. The churches we belong to are religions, but our faith is not. Jesus saves without regard to one's church affiliation.

 

What Matt posted puts the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent in the context of the Lutheran point of view. The Canons and Decrees were around long before the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification was written. As a matter of fact, I did look at the website of that document--all it is the Lutheran's declaration that they will "dialogue" with the RCC--it is simply an "ecumenical" document. The Lutherans are "coming home" to the "Mother Church". This document does NOT change the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. They are attempting to "bridge" their differences.

The context of my original argument? I wasn't arguing--I was simply asking if anyone had read the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. This is the document on which the RCC stands, as well as Vatican II and the Catechisms of the Catholic Church.

http://www.catholic.net/baltimore_catechism/template_channel.phtml?channel_id=14

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/v1.html

These are all public so anybody can see them.

I agree with the OP--Catholics are not Christians. </font>[/QUOTE]Hmmm... I wonder where I got the idea that you wouldn't or didn't read it. It could have been the point when you said; I don't need to read it.

The OP said that Catholics are going to hell. This implies that all Catholics are going to hell. This is obviously an absurd statement considering the requirement for heaven is salvation. We have to “believe” (and you know what I mean by that) and to say that some Catholics don't believe in Jesus Christ as their savior is ridiculous. They may be wrong in doctrine in some areas, but doctrinal infallibility (by the man) doesn't get one into heaven.

 

Wearing the label "Protestant" or "Catholic" or "Baptist" does not make one a Christian who is on their way to heaven.

Being born again by the power of the Holy Spirit does. Regardless of label. And that is one person at a time, not in bulk.

 

AMEN Debby!!!

That's why YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN !!

 

AMEN Debby!!!

That's why YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN !! </font>[/QUOTE]You are right! Born again means being baptized with water and the Holy Spirit! I am born again. I was baptized.

 

If you leave out the water, and the need for baptism, you would be correct.

 

The phrase "born again means being baptized with water and the Holy Spirit" is correct. The water, however, that Jesus referrs to is the water present at birth, when one is born of the flesh. Beign born again requires being born of water (our earthy birth) and being born of the Spirit (our spiritual birth). Jesus affirms this by saying that flesh gives birth to flesh, and spirit to spirit.

Water Baptism isn't what Jesus was being referred to, and is not required for salvation.

 

I believe when Jesus said that we are to be 'born of the water and of the blood', He was speaking of one event; His death. If one remembers, when the soldier pierced His side, both water and blood spewed forth.

One must fully place their faith in Christ and His finished work on the cross, for salvation. If one is saved, I believe one should make an outward profession of that faith by testimony and immersion by water baptism. Peter, in Acts 10, commanded them to be baptized. This was after they had received the Holy Spirit into their lives.

 

SFC, I think you're confusing "... he that came by water and blood..." with being born of "water and the spirit".

Jesus said you must be born of water and the spirit. He was not referring to his death here.

 

Johnv

I stand corrected on that verse. But the verse here speaking of the water and blood that Christ shed on Calvary.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

The part 'even Jesus Christ' shows it is water and blood, His water and blood that brings us the victory to overcome the world.

We already know that only overcomers will be part of the kingdom, so we must come to Him not only through that blood He shed, but through the water as well.

 

Yes, there I agree with you 100%.

 

Please explain these then.

Matthew 28:19
9Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


Acts 1:5
For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

Luke 3:21

21When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened

From the Gospel of St. Mark (16):

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."


"in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

That sounds like a prayer I know...hmmmmm.

 

Originally posted by jay29:

Being born again does NOT mean being baptized with water and the Holy Spirit--not according to the Word of God.

According to the Word of God, being born again means:

BORN AGAIN

A sinner receiving new life from God (Joh 3:1-16) and being born into God's family (Joh 1:12-13). This new life is received by trusting Jesus Christ (Joh 3:7-16; 1:12; 1Jo 5:1) . How the New Birth Is Like the First Birth: (1) It is a powerful event. The natural birth is a very significant event. Many people are affected, not only the mother and father, but also all of the relatives and friends and acquaintances. Births are very dramatic things. So is the new birth. (2) It happens at one time. A man is not born over a period of a week or month or year. A birth happens in one day. So does the new birth. There are many things leading up to the birth, but the birth itself happens in one day. (3) Others know it when it happens. When a child comes into this world, everyone around knows that a new life has been born. Likewise, when a person is born again, those around him are going to know it. The Means of the New Birth: This new life is received by trusting Christ to be one's Savior from sin (Joh 3:7-16; 1:12; 1Jo 5:1). People are born again by hearing and believing the Gospel of Christ (1Co 4:15; Jas 1:18; 1Pe 1:23). The Source of the New Birth: It is the Holy Spirit who imparts this new life (Tit 3:5; 1Co 6:11). The Result of the New Birth: Those who are born again have eternal inheritance and are preserved by God (1Pe 1:3-5) . Their lives, also, are completely changed by the power of the indwelling Spirit (2Co 5:17; 1Jo 3:14).
Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible)


When we are born again, we are baptized and sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14; 1 Cor. 12:13)

Being baptized with water DOES NOT SAVE--never has, and never will. Baptism is an ordinance of the Church, an outward profession of an inward profession of faith in Christ. We don't get baptized TO BE saved, we get baptized because WE ALREADY ARE saved!! Baptism is our identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ--the first step of obedience in the walk of a Christian.

 

Look at Jesus's Baptism by John! If Jesus was baptized with water I need to be.


But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38 In the above verse, we clearly see our sins are forgiven at time of Baptism, and that we receive the Holy Ghost through our Baptism.

"And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him." Matthew 3:16.

For those who believe in full submersion for Baptism to be valid, this verse shows Jesus "came out of the water" after being baptized. How does this mean he was fully submerged? Is it not possible to go in water and come out without going completely under the water?

 

You must be quoting from the Douay Rheims Bible (Catholic)--Peter did not say "do penance". That was translated from the Latin Vulgate--not from the Greek. The KJV says,

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Repent is not the same as "penance".

The Strongs definition for "repent" is:
3340. metanoeo
Search for G3340 in KJVSL
metanoew metanoeo met-an-o-eh'-o

from 3326 and 3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):--repent.

See Greek 3326
See Greek 3539

PENANCE

A practice promoted by the Roman Catholic Church. Penance is the act of confessing sins and making restitution and paying penalties imposed by a priest. It is not a biblical practice, but one observed by false Christian groups in their attempt to add to the finished work of Christ. Some Roman Catholic versions of the Bible wrongly replace the term "repentance" with "do penance."
Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible


Those who repent (not do penance) and trust the Lord Jesus Christ receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life and the Holy Spirit, and baptism signifies this spiritual reality.

By comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know that it is faith in Christ that saves, and baptism is the symbol and evidence of one’s faith.

Baptism does not save!!!!

 

And you know this how, exactly? </font>[/QUOTE]Can you not know why? I already mentioned that so many things are different each other, and they never accepted the other party each other before.

Look at the followings which I already mentioned in the beginning: My church disagree to those absolutely.

Catholics have : Immaculate Conception, Theotokos(Mother of God), Assumption, Mother of Church, Celibacy, Papacy, Papal Infallibility, No Salvation Outside Holy Roman Catholic Church, Idol making, Idol worshipping, Mass of ever-asking sin-forgiveness, Magic Show by Transubstantiation, Clergy system, Holy Father and Monsignor (Blasphemy to God), Extreme Unction, Purgatory, Limbo, Inquisition, Infant Baptism, and more products with the brand mark of Holy Roman Catholic.

 

Baptism by immersion (Believer's Baptism) is biblical. The word BAPTIZE in the Greek means "to immerse"

907. baptizo
Search for G907 in KJVSL
baptizw baptizo bap-tid'-zo

from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.

Jesus Christ was fully immersed when He was baptized. We are to follow His example.

The word baptism means to immerse or dip and is called "burial" in Ro 6:4 and Col 2:12. There is no N.T. support for the practice of sprinkling or pouring. Both of these practices corrupt the proper symbolism of the ordinance.

Romans 6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.