Asbury "Revival"

[KenH]

I disagree with many of its doctrines

So you don't think that doctrine matters? Just mention the name "Jesus" somewhere and it passes muster in your mind?

Jesus put a high priority on doctrine.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Paul did so as well:

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

What is more interesting is why revivals have not been occurring among churches we tend to think of as having more sound doctrine.

There is no true revival unless the gospel of Christ is being preached, unless sound doctrine is being preached.

Why are Pentecostals (not Holiness Pentecostals but Christian Pentecostals) reaching more with the gospel?

Pentecostals teach a false gospel.

 

[KenH]

I take it the meme referred to DL Moody?

What J.K. Popham had to say about the likes of Moody and Sankey I think can also be applied to what is going on at Asbury:

"I am bound to say I am opposed to the religious movement of which Messrs, Moody and Sankey are the leaders. I am opposed to it because I fail to see what Mr. Moody so confidently asserted at Birmingham – that the present work is God’s. Every religious movement must be judged more by its doctrines than by what we usually see paraded – results. The teachings of its leaders must be brought to God’s word, and tested by it. “To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” [Isa 8:20]

If God were in this movement, would not the teachings of its leaders be in accordance with the word of truth?"

- rest at THE FALSE GOSPEL AND FALSE CONVERTS OF D.L. MOODY | (wordpress.com)

(emphasis mine)

 

[AustinC]

God can use even bad theology to move His people. He used Gideon, a theologically ignorant man, to bring Israel back to God.

The Apostle Paul stated this in Philippians 1:15-18:

Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice.

Therefore, I rejoice in what God is doing by saving and renewing his children.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

I've heard a lack of gospel, and a HEAVY emphasis on "experiences" as well as "feelings." The NAR is also sinking it's tentacles into the matter as well. I'm skeptical anytime anything in (supposed) Christianity becomes popular - The Chosen being the latest example.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

God can use even bad theology to move His people. He used Gideon, a theologically ignorant man, to bring Israel back to God.

The Apostle Paul stated this in Philippians 1:15-18:

Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice.

Therefore, I rejoice in what God is doing by saving and renewing his children.

Paul wasn't referring to bad theology, he was referring to sound/biblical theology from men who had bad/sinful motives; having greater notoriety than Paul, etc.

 

[canadyjd]

….

Scripture does clearly teach that women should not be preachers.

But Scrioture equally teaches that we are not to judge others except in looking to our congregations….."?

Really?

Does scripture “equally teach” Christians not to judge others……?

I know Jesus said judge not lest ye be judged. He was certainly speaking of judging in a hypocritical manner as the Pharisees did.

I can think of passages where Christian’s are told to pay attention to doctrine, to beware of false teachers, etc…

I can’t think of any passages where Christians are told to allow women to be pastors.

As far as the “satanic” accusation, I’m not sure. From Genesis 3, after the fall, God tells Eve her desire will be for her husband but he would rule over her. The word “desire” there is referring to control or usurping the authority of her husband.

When Paul, in 1 Timothy gives the reason women are not allowed to teach or have authority over men, he refers to Genesis 3 and the fall. It really has nothing to do with intelligence, or ability to speak.

Even though he says “Eve was deceived”, I don’t believe he means women are more easily deceived than men. If you think that then you must agree that men are more prone to willful disobedience to God’s commands since Adam sinned willfully.

It is God’s desired order for men to be pastors. If Churches are allowing, encouraging something that directly goes against God’s clearly stated commands, is that satanic?

peace to you

 

[Marooncat79]

My friend says they are going out to cemeteries and draping themselves over the ground to get the anointing that person had when they were alive


Sad sad sad

 

[KenH]

Paul wasn't referring to bad theology, he was referring to sound/biblical theology from men who had bad/sinful motives; having greater notoriety than Paul, etc.

Spot on. They were preaching the same true gospel of Christ as the apostle Paul but they were wanting to take advantage of Paul being in prison to try to build up themselves in the eyes of men.

John Gill explains it well: Philippians 1:15 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse (biblestudytools.com)

 

[KenH]

God can use even bad theology to move His people.

God may use anyone, regardless of whether they are saved or not, as a tool to move the elect toward eventually being regenerated and brought to look to Christ as the Lord our Righteousness. I know in my own life God used someone as odd and off the rails as Harold Camping for a period of time around 1990 to bring me along toward understanding the gospel(as he taught the doctrines of grace on the radio) which eventually led to me leaving the Pelagianism of the Church of Christ and around 30 years later through all of the twists and turns that God ordained in my life God graciously regenerated me and gave me a new heart to look to Christ as the Lord my Righteousness.

Eventually, God brings His elect under the preaching of the gospel of Christ, as He did for me in mid-2021. He does not use a half true gospel/half false gospel (see Leviticus 19:19 for a type) to regenerate His chosen. 1 Peter 2:2 - As newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby. (emphasis mine)

As Christ warned there are a lot of false Christs being promoted(Matthew 24:24) and false apostles as Paul warned(2 Corinthians 11:13). SO MANY people who call themselves "Christians" do not know and follow the Christ of the Bible; they follow after a Christ of their own imagination or after a false Christ promoted by false preachers/teachers.

 

[JonC]

They do not teach the gospel of Christ. They teach a false man-made doctrine. Paul condemned false gospels in extremely strong language.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

That's what I am getting at.

You say they do not teach the gospel.

BUT you only offer that they are charismatic and allow women pastors.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I can only go off your evidence and what they say they teach. I don't know about this seminary.

 

[JonC]

What J.K. Popham had to say about the likes of Moody and Sankey I think can also be applied to what is going on at Asbury:

"I am bound to say I am opposed to the religious movement of which Messrs, Moody and Sankey are the leaders. I am opposed to it because I fail to see what Mr. Moody so confidently asserted at Birmingham – that the present work is God’s. Every religious movement must be judged more by its doctrines than by what we usually see paraded – results. The teachings of its leaders must be brought to God’s word, and tested by it. “To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” [Isa 8:20]

If God were in this movement, would not the teachings of its leaders be in accordance with the word of truth?"

- rest at THE FALSE GOSPEL AND FALSE CONVERTS OF D.L. MOODY | (wordpress.com)

(emphasis mine)

Looks like Popham judged on his own presuppositions.

I have read many of Moody's sermons and biography. There is a reason Calvinists even invited him to preach in their pulpits (although Moody wasn't a Calvinist).

What part of Moody's beliefs contradicted the gospel?

 

[KenH]

You say they do not teach the gospel.

BUT you only offer that they are charismatic and allow women pastors.

You posted that they affirmed the following in terms of the gospel: "God, in His prevenient grace, restores moral sensibility to all humankind and enables all to respond to His love and to accept His saving grace."

That is a false, man-made, unBiblical idea. It is balderdash!. It is rubbish!

 

[JonC]

So you don't think that doctrine matters? Just mention the name "Jesus" somewhere and it passes muster in your mind?

Jesus put a high priority on doctrine.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Paul did so as well:

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.



There is no true revival unless the gospel of Christ is being preached, unless sound doctrine is being preached.



Pentecostals teach a false gospel.

No, I believe doctrine does matter.

But I also believe that we have to a certain Scripture as a whole and not dismiss God's commands we do not like.

For example, God commanded us not to judge other congregations as He will make them stand. We are also commanded to guard our congregation.

I believe we can, and should, obey both of those commands (I don't see one contradicting the other).

I think that is important in how we go about our lives.

Pentecostals have the same gospel (again, I'm not talking about Holiness Pentecostals).

To condemn men like Gordon Fee for being Pentecostal, even though he believes the same gospel, strikes of bigotry in doctrine rather than Christian.

 

[KenH]

I have read many of Moody's sermons and biography. There is a reason Calvinists even invited him to preach in their pulpits (although Moody wasn't a Calvinist).

And they were very wrong to do so, not that I go along with someone anyway just because they call themselves a Calvinist. I am not a Calvinist even though I get called one by some people.

 

[JonC]

You posted that they affirmed the following in terms of the gospel: "God, in His prevenient grace, restores moral sensibility to all humankind and enables all to respond to His love and to accept His saving grace."

That is a false, man-made, unBiblical idea. It is balderdash!. It is rubbish!

They are Methodist. I don't believe e their doctrine correct.

BUT Scripture tells me that God will make them stand as they affirm the same gospel.

 

[JonC]

And they were very wrong to do so, not that I go along with someone anyway just because they call themselves a Calvinist. I am not a Calvinist even though I get called one by some people.

You have yet to explain how Moody held a false gospel.

 

[KenH]

For example, God commanded us not to judge other congregations

Where in the Bible does it say, "Do not judge other congregations?"

 

[KenH]

Pentecostals have the same gospel

No, they, as LOTS of people who call themselves Christians, preach a false, man-made gospel and not the gospel of Christ. Any doctrinal system that places ANY conditions on the sinner and does not teach that ALL of the conditions were fulfilled by Christ is a false gospel and not the gospel of Christ.

 

[KenH]

They are Methodist. I don't believe e their doctrine correct.

BUT Scripture tells me that God will make them stand as they affirm the same gospel.

If their doctrine is wrong, then they are following a Christ of their own imagination and not the Christ revealed in God's Word. They are teaching that Christ did not finish His work(even though Christ said that He did finish it) and that it is up to man to 'finish the job". They are teaching a partial Savior. That is not the gospel of Christ revealed in the Bible.

Doctrines matters greatly, whether people realize it or not.

 

[KenH]

What part of Moody's beliefs contradicted the gospel?

You have yet to explain how Moody held a false gospel.

Read the article at the link I provided in my post #22 above.