Ashes & What Happens in Hell

[Mark Corbett]

Several Bible passages indicate that the ungodly will be burned up, consumed by fire, and turned to ashes. Which view of hell does this support? The three main views are eternal torment, annihilationism (aka conditional immortality), and universalism.

Here is an optional to watch 10 minute video that discusses this same question:

 

[SavedByGrace]

The problem with annihilationism, is that it is not really any "punishment" for the lost. if a person ceases to exist after they die, then how can this be "suffering", which is what the Bible, especially Jesus, says that will be for those who are lost. Further, why would Jesus tell Judas, that it is better that he was not even born (Matthew 26:41), if he was only going to be "annihilated" after he died? Why would Jesus says that we are to "fear" God, who could "destroy both body and soul in Gehenna"? (Matthew 10:28). Where ἀπόλλῡμι can hardly be used for annihilation, or anything that does not include "suffering", because Jesus says that this fate is to be "feared". In the context, anything less than "suffering" is not an option. Jesus also uses phrases like, "weeping and gnashing of teeth", in Matthew 13:42, "and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". In Jude 7 we read, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire". Which was written thousands of years after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha, and yet Jude says, "υπεχουσαι", which is the Greek verb in the present tense, "continue to suffer". These were clealy not "annihilated". Then we have in Revelation 19:20, "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone". This is before the 1000 Year Reign. And, in chapter 20 we read, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (verse 10). Where the use of βασανισθησονται, which is in the plural number, shows that 1000 years later, when the Devil was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, both the beast and false prophet were still there! Again, "annihilation", cannot be used for this.

 

[atpollard]

What is the function of a fire that is never quenched for a finite process?
Why do the worms never die if the people are gone (either annihilated or universally reconciled)?

Mark 9:42-48 [NKJV]

“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’​

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’​

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
​

Don't get me wrong, E.C.T. doesn't fill me with feelings of butteries and warm puppies.
I just don't see how one can bulldoze past certain verses to avoid it.

 

[Yeshua1]

The problem with annihilationism, is that it is not really any "punishment" for the lost. if a person ceases to exist after they die, then how can this be "suffering", which is what the Bible, especially Jesus, says that will be for those who are lost. Further, why would Jesus tell Judas, that it is better that he was not even born (Matthew 26:41), if he was only going to be "annihilated" after he died? Why would Jesus says that we are to "fear" God, who could "destroy both body and soul in Gehenna"? (Matthew 10:28). Where ἀπόλλῡμι can hardly be used for annihilation, or anything that does not include "suffering", because Jesus says that this fate is to be "feared". In the context, anything less than "suffering" is not an option. Jesus also uses phrases like, "weeping and gnashing of teeth", in Matthew 13:42, "and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". In Jude 7 we read, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire". Which was written thousands of years after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha, and yet Jude says, "υπεχουσαι", which is the Greek verb in the present tense, "continue to suffer". These were clealy not "annihilated". Then we have in Revelation 19:20, "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone". This is before the 1000 Year Reign. And, in chapter 20 we read, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (verse 10). Where the use of βασανισθησονται, which is in the plural number, shows that 1000 years later, when the Devil was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, both the beast and false prophet were still there! Again, "annihilation", cannot be used for this.

How can there be degrees of punishment as Jesus stated will be, if all lost get smoked?

 

[SavedByGrace]

What is the function of a fire that is never quenched for a finite process?
Why do the worms never die if the people are gone (either annihilated or universally reconciled)?

Mark 9:42-48 [NKJV]

“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’​

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’​

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
​

Don't get me wrong, E.C.T. doesn't fill me with feelings of butteries and warm puppies.
I just don't see how one can bulldoze past certain verses to avoid it.

A couple of points on this passage. Firstly, I noticed that it says "their worm", where Jesus uses the masculine personal pronoun, αυτων, which is a reference to the "body" of those who are in Gehenna. This term is used for humans in the Old Testament. Second, it is interesting that these warnings are addressed to "the Disciples" (verse 31), "the Twelve" (verse 35), and in verse 38, John speaks to Jesus. It is clear from the passage and context, that these warnings are also addressed to The 12 Disciples!

 

[37818]

It is not commonly understood because of the common false teaching for the immortality of the soul. The soul is mortal for the lost who will suffer for all eternity. The evidence is Jesus had His mortal soul die on the cross, Isaiah 53:10 and Isaiah 53:12. And He was fully conscious while His soul was dead. After He finished the atonement, John 19:28, then His soul being again alive He physically dies for His resurrection, John 19:30.

 

[SavedByGrace]

How can there be degrees of punishment as Jesus stated will be, if all lost get smoked?

what does Jesus mean in Luke 12:47-48?

And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

 

[SavedByGrace]

It is not commonly understood because common false teaching for the immortality of the soul. The soul is mortal for the lost who will suffer for all eternity. The evidence is Jesus had His mortal soul die on the cross, Isaiah 53:10 and Isaiah 53:12. And He was fully conscious while His soul was dead. After He finished the atonement, John 19:28, then His soul being alive He physically dies for His resurrection, John 19:30.

The soul of ALL humans is immortal, whether lost or saved.

 

[Mark Corbett]

SavedByGrace, thanks for responding to my post! I'll try to respond to some of your comment perhaps in several different replies. This first:

The problem with annihilationism, is that it is not really any "punishment" for the lost. if a person ceases to exist after they die, then how can this be "suffering", which is what the Bible, especially Jesus, says that will be for those who are lost.

Both in the Bible (the law given to Moses) and in our modern culture, the death penalty is often considered the most severe penalty and is reserved for severe crimes. And yet, the person suffering the death penalty often suffers little pain, or only suffers for a short time, depending on the method of execution. The death penalty is not considered severe because of the pain inflicted, but rather because of what the executed person will miss out on. With respect to the ungodly finally perishing in the final judgment, they miss out on eternal life in a perfect world of pure joy. That is a very serious punishment.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Further, why would Jesus tell Judas, that it is better that he was not even born (Matthew 26:41), if he was only going to be "annihilated" after he died?

The type of annihilationism I believe in, which is spreading among evangelicals, includes the biblical teaching that the unrighteous will be resurrected to face judgment. The process of being judged will be terrifying. And nothing in annihilationism requires that the process of perishing be instant or painless. It indeed would have been better for Judas if he had not been born!

 

[SavedByGrace]

SavedByGrace, thanks for responding to my post! I'll try to respond to some of your comment perhaps in several different replies. This first:



Both in the Bible (the law given to Moses) and in our modern culture, the death penalty is often considered the most severe penalty and is reserved for severe crimes. And yet, the person suffering the death penalty often suffers little pain, or only suffers for a short time, depending on the method of execution. The death penalty is not considered severe because of the pain inflicted, but rather because of what the executed person will miss out on. With respect to the ungodly finally perishing in the final judgment, they miss out on eternal life in a perfect world of pure joy. That is a very serious punishment.

The biggest problem with your argument is that the lost really don't give a hoot about spending eternity with the Lord. They don't believe in a literal hell either. It is no punishment to be wiped out completely because it is exactly what they believe that they will get after they die

 

[SavedByGrace]

The type of annihilationism I believe in, which is spreading among evangelicals, includes the biblical teaching that the unrighteous will be resurrected to face judgment. The process of being judged will be terrifying. And nothing in annihilationism requires that the process of perishing be instant or painless. It indeed would have been better for Judas if he had not been born!

Are you Seventh Day Adventist or JW?

 

[Mark Corbett]

Why would Jesus says that we are to "fear" God, who could "destroy both body and soul in Gehenna"? (Matthew 10:28). Where ἀπόλλῡμι can hardly be used for annihilation, or anything that does not include "suffering", because Jesus says that this fate is to be "feared". In the context, anything less than "suffering" is not an option.

Good question! Matthew 10:28 is indeed an important verse when it comes to knowing what will happen to the unrighteous in hell. A few thoughts:

1. The unsaved do fear death. Fear of death is common and widespread. Further, the Bible teaches that the unsaved fear death:

14 Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through his death he might destroy the one holding the power of death-- that is, the devil--
15 and free those who were held in slavery all their lives by the fear of death. (Heb. 2:14-15 CSB17)​

2. Annihilationism does not entail that the process of being annihilated will be instant or painless.

3. The Greek word ἀπόλλῡμι (apollumi) is a much better fit for annihilation than it is for eternal torment. Indeed, this word was clearly used by ancient Greek authors before, during, and shortly after the time the NT was written to refer to annihilation of the whole person, body and soul, after death. I present an in depth word study of apollumi in this video:

 

[Mark Corbett]

Are you Seventh Day Adventist or JW?

No, I'm a theologically conservative evangelical who serves and worships in a Southern Baptist Church. More and more people like me are coming to see that the Bible teaches conditional immortality, not eternal torment.

 

[Mark Corbett]

How can there be degrees of punishment as Jesus stated will be, if all lost get smoked?

Good question! The evangelical version of the doctrine of annihilationism (which is the version I hold and the only one I care about) allows for degrees of punishment. The unrighteous will be resurrected to face judgment. The judgment process will be terrible and terrifying. And just as there are different means of execution now, the unrighteous may perish in different ways. Crucifixion and lethal injection are both death sentences. One is usually a lot more painful.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, I'm a theologically conservative evangelical who serves and worships in a Southern Baptist Church. More and more people like me are coming to see that the Bible teaches conditional immortality, not eternal torment.

Exactly what is Jesus saving sinners from, if not sin and its consequences of eternal suffering? Are all of the warnings in the Bible not real?

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, that the lost, eat, drink and are merry, for tomorrow they die. They have no concern about this

 

[Mark Corbett]

At the end of your comment, you wrote:

Don't get me wrong, E.C.T. doesn't fill me with feelings of butteries and warm puppies.
I just don't see how one can bulldoze past certain verses to avoid it.

Brother, I don't want you or anyone else to bulldoze past any verses. If someone see some possibility that conditional immortality might be taught in the Bible, I encourage them to go slow and study all the relevant verses in depth. Look at the best arguments from both sides.

Now you ask about Mark 9:42-48:

What is the function of a fire that is never quenched for a finite process?
Why do the worms never die if the people are gone (either annihilated or universally reconciled)?

Mark 9:42-48 [NKJV]

“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’​

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’​

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’​

Good questions! I address this about half way through this 10 minute video. If you don't want to watch the video, the short answer is that Jesus is quoting from the last verse of Isaiah where we see the same language used of worms and fire consuming dead bodies, not tormenting living people. Here's the video:

 

[Mark Corbett]

Exactly what is Jesus saving sinners from, if not sin and its consequences of eternal suffering? Are all of the warnings in the Bible not real?

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, that the lost, eat, drink and are merry, for tomorrow they die. They have no concern about this

Jesus is saving people from the wages of sin: death. He is saving them so that they can have eternal life and not perish (John 3:16).

If the traditional eternal torment view were true, how would you explain the passages in the 7 minute video in the OP that speak of the unsaved being burned up and turned to ashes? Unless I've missed it, you have not addressed the main question and argument in the OP directly yet.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, I'm a theologically conservative evangelical who serves and worships in a Southern Baptist Church. More and more people like me are coming to see that the Bible teaches conditional immortality, not eternal torment.

You have ignored Jude 7 and Revelation 19 and 20, which shows that the lost are not extinct after they die

 

[Iconoclast]

Any denial of conscious eternal torment is a first step of doctrinal apostasy.