Ask in Sunday School

[agedman]

I will present my first thinking when told this account by a friend.

Because it was ask in an adult Sunday School, it is assumed the respondents have some understanding of the Scripture.

I took it as a matter of “Lordship.” I took each question as reduced to the Sovereignty of God.

But then, I wondered how it was that others did not, and from what viewpoint formed their perspectives.

Hence the thread.

Again the responses are not so much for debate, but to gather perspectives.

Atpollard had a suggestion of reworking the questions. That might have been wise.

Perhaps the teacher didn’t want to box in the responses knowing the audience were typically sitting in a lecture setting rather than a participatory group.

I am considering starting a thread on the bully pulpit declarative preaching in comparison to the teaching pastor who engages responsible discussion. Would it benefit the BB folks?

 

[HankD]

?????
Hank?
I am totally not following you here?

Me neither.

 

[MartyF]

How many of you believe in God?

I do not believe in the god of Aristotle, Plato, and Plotinus.

How many of you believe God should control all He created?

I do not believe in the god of Aristotle, Plato, and Plotinus.

How many of you believe God controls you?

I do not believe in the god of Aristotle, Plato, and Plotinus.

 

[Benjamin]

I wouldn’t take the bait, but would rather expose the Determinist agenda of the “teacher” to anyone in the class that wasn’t aware there is an attempt here to spoon feed them a seriously flawed soteriological system which would lead them to straight into theological fatalism.

 

[Iconoclast]

Me neither.

Maybe my intention was not clear.
In many churches there new believers who have perhaps not even heard the terms dealing with providence, or the teaching behind it.
They can rightly be described as ignorant or unlearned...not in a derogatory way, but rather just a statement of fact.
The apostles used the word often...ie... I would not have you to ignorant concerning those who have fallen asleep.

 

[Marooncat79]

The fact that God made a man eat grass and live like an animal tells me everthing I need to know

Read it in Daniel

 

[Benjamin]

Yup, considering the class probably has new believers and some unlearned in soteriology I would address the incoming Doctrines of Deterministic Sovereignty and nip it the bud, so to speak. I have found instances such as these as a very opportunistic time to effectively head off the excitement that people suddenly feel while being lead to believe they have come to understand a soteriological system and became a Bible scholar before they head into the Cage Stage to announce their new found biblical wisdom to the world by which their pride then prevents them from coming to the truth about man’s nature and the Nature of God.

 

[HankD]

Here is a good starting point:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[GoodTidings]

God would not be God if anything was outside of His control
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Is God in control of every action? Does everything happen because God ordains it?

 

[Iconoclast]

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Is God in control of every action? Does everything happen because God ordains it?

If God ordained an action it comes to pass.
Acts 2:23 shows the cross was ordained to come to pass through the actions of wicked men.
God did not force the wicked men to do it. They used their own self will to sin.

A person has an appointed time of death. Everything in their life brings them to that point in life.
If the end of life is cancer,heart attack,dying from a bullet on a battlefield
,choking on a piece of steak,car or place crash....all the events were providentially ordered by God.

 

[GoodTidings]

If God ordained an action it comes to pass.

But is EVERY ACTION that comes to pass on earth ordained by God?

 

[InTheLight]

But is EVERY ACTION that comes to pass on earth ordained by God?

I remember when I first joined BB and encountered the radical Calvinist faction. I innocently asked if God controlled what I ate for lunch each day and was told, that yes, he does. Even if I ended up eating something different than what I originally planned, it was really God deciding in eternity past what I would be eating that day!



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[Iconoclast]

But is EVERY ACTION that comes to pass on earth ordained by God?

Yes.

If it was not ordained, then it would not come to pass. Even the wicked acts of wicked men.
Look in revelation 6 they cry out, how long till you avenge our blood on the earth, they are told to wait until their fellow servants should be killed as they were...rev6:11.
God told them ahead of time what was ordained to take place.

 

[atpollard]

Did God ordain the events in the life of Joseph? His father and 'mothers' family dynamics? His brother's actions? Potifer's house? Potifer's wife? The Jailer? The fellow prisoners? The famine? The healing of his dysfunctional family dynamic? The slavery of his decedents?

Was it all orchestrated for "the good of man and the glory of God"?

What about the events in Job? Were they 'ordained' by God?

 

[GoodTidings]

Yes.

If it was not ordained, then it would not come to pass. Even the wicked acts of wicked men.
Look in revelation 6 they cry out, how long till you avenge our blood on the earth, they are told to wait until their fellow servants should be killed as they were...rev6:11.
God told them ahead of time what was ordained to take place.

So if a evil man goes out and rapes and murders a 14 year-old girl, that action, that event was ordained by God to happen? God wanted that to happen?

 

[GoodTidings]

I remember when I first joined BB and encountered the radical Calvinist faction. I innocently asked if God controlled what I ate for lunch each day and was told, that yes, he does. Even if I ended up eating something different than what I originally planned, it was really God deciding in eternity past what I would be eating that day!



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Yes, that is view of the hyper-sovereignty group. They mistake the sovereignty of God for what is known as, "hard determinism."

 

[rlvaughn]

Did God ordain the events in the life of Joseph?

In some sense, yes, though people were actors too. Genesis 50:19-21 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them.

What about the events in Job? Were they 'ordained' by God?

In some sense, yes, though Satan was an actor too. Job 1:11-12 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord. Job 2:3-6 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job 1:21-22 and said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Was it all orchestrated for "the good of man and the glory of God"?

Yes. Genesis 50:20 ...but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Job 42:10 And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before. Romans 8:28.

 

[37818]

What is meant by "control?"

"How does uncaused existence control everything?" can be asked. Given, that not anything exists without it.

 

[agedman]

So if a evil man goes out and rapes and murders a 14 year-old girl, that action, that event was ordained by God to happen? God wanted that to happen?

Did God ordain the events in the life of Joseph? His father and 'mothers' family dynamics? His brother's actions? Potifer's house? Potifer's wife? The Jailer? The fellow prisoners? The famine? The healing of his dysfunctional family dynamic? The slavery of his decedents?

Was it all orchestrated for "the good of man and the glory of God"?

What about the events in Job? Were they 'ordained' by God?

Evil is already in the heart of humankind. God doesn’t have to plan what evil is done, rather all he has to do is withdraw His protection, as was shown in the life of Job, Saul, destruction by water, even the crucifixion.

When God commands that certain will transpire, He also hold the evil doers to account for any excess. Foe example, God brought punishments to the invading army because they exceeded what God permitted.

It is very strange folks want to point to evil manifested as God not involved, yet never is the same ask of the good?

Did God allow the watering by rain and dew? Did God allow the sunlight to bring warmth that the natural courses of living continue? Did God protect the innocent by turning away or removing the evil doer?

Is God aware of all the creation and what occurs, even controls?

Where not the questions ask by God when confronting Job?

Ultimately, the answer to all the questions dissolve to the statement, “It pleased God to ....”.

For do not the Scriptures teach, “All things work together ...”. Therefore, God is certainly in control that all things work together....

How strange it seems that humans want to blame God, when even Christ warned of the sufficient evil of each day.

God doesn’t have to command or decree evil, it is already.

 

[37818]

But is EVERY ACTION that comes to pass on earth ordained by God?

No. But there is an how every action is though.