Asleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

To be honest I just don't know. Scriptures says they CAN be seen, but it also shows they are not always so. I will go with this: They can be seen with opened eyes. Hows that? Vague enough :laugh:

 

Now that's funny. :applause: :laugh:

 

As we read the letters to the Thessalonians we become aware they are "babes in Christ". They need to be comforted and reminded of the fact they will not go through the Tribulation. He does not want them to be ignorant of this fact, and others. And we are to comfort one another, explaining to those that worry about the ones that now sleep in Him will be bodily caught up to Him in the air, and we that are alive will then also be bodily caught up to Him. The loved ones that have gone on will once again be with us. We of course will know each other.

Notice in verse 16 who is giving us this information. I believe it is very important also to be aware at the time we are "caught up to Him", His "Kingdom" has not come. So this event has an order, and at the time of the rapture, it is strictly for those in the "Body Church", as we were hidden in God. His "Body Church" will be gone when He again begins to deal with His people.

All others in the first resurrection are of the "Kingdom of heaven", those Jews of the thousand year reign with Him as Kings and Priests. This comes after our "bodily" resurrection, Jesus Christ of course being the first. I Timothy I:16, "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

Those in Abraham's bosom, before Paradise (Christ) came to the upper chamber in the earth, will also be included in the "first body resurrection", as will those that die in the "Kingdom church" during the Tribulation period.

Who sleep, or will sleep? Those of the "Kingdom Church", and those that sleep in His "Body Church".

 

Pretribs misinterpreting 1 Thess. 4:18 of "comforting". It is not talking about escape from the coming tribulation. 'Comfort' of verse 18 is context with 1 Thess. 4:13-18 talks about alive Christians' sorrow and concerning over their love ones who already died. Paul told them, do not be sorrow over them, and do not worry about them. He told them, that they shall see their love ones at Lord's coming, that would be a GREAT reunion day shall be. That what the comfort is for.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Who will God Bring with Jesus?

Once again we see Ituttut's failure to include Tribulation Martyrs AMONG those who "die in the Lord". They are "blessed because their works will follow them". Rev.14:13. Ituttut assumes the "first resurrection" of Rev.20:4 does NOT include the Tribulation Saints whom "God brings with Jesus" when He comes to rapture those who survive to the end and who will reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years while the Martys "serve God in the temple of heaven for 1000 years" to reap the reward promised to the CHURCH!!! Rev.7:15-17; Rev.3:10-12.

What is so obviously missing from this discussion is the fact that the only
reference to the "appointed (kairos) time" for the Resurrection, Rewards
(including the 1000 year reign on earth while the martyrs "serve God in
heaven's temple) that occur on the SAME DAY Christ comes to take
vengeance on those who refuse to repent or call upon Him for mercy!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :applause: belongs to God for bringing Trib-Martyrs with Jesus on the last day as He promised over and over in John 6:38-54!

 

Deafpost:

What are you talking about!?? I am a Pre-Trib and have NEVER heard such non-sense from anyone, pastor or layman. The "comfort' in 1 Thes 4 is not about the rapture (that I have EveR heard) when scripture clearly shows it is about being with the Lord and those who have gone on before but IN Christ.

FTR - Having been raised Baptist (specifically Southern Baptist) and attending both Independent and Southern Baptist schools, and being an Evangelist/Pastor and knowing many other pastors in differing states I state again this is news to me.

 

Trib-Survivors will Meet their beloved Trib-Martyrs

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Dear Allan,

Don't you agree that, during the great tribulation of terrible suffering, Trib-Survivors (who are rescued after enduring to the end; Matt.24:14) will be "comforted" by Paul's revelation that their "dead brethren in the Lord will rise first" in the "first resurrection" of Rev.20:4-5?

Do you not teach that Scriptures regarding the "dead in Christ" apply to those who "overcome to the END" when Christ comes as King? The distinctive words, achri and aykw (891; 2240), referenced by Jesus of the time of His coming, Matt.24:14 and Rev.2:25-26, refer to Christ's second coming at the END of time!

Achri is a "particle indicating the terminus ad quem" (End of time) when Christ comes and all Israel will be saved. ICor.15:25-26; Rom.11:25-26; Luke 21:24 and the verses listed above.

Jesus in other places used the words "erchomai" and "parousia" of His coming in person AFTER the great tribulation ends! But here He says "we are to hold fast and overcome to the END ... because survivors to the END will sit on earthly thrones and rule with Him on earth while Martyrs coming out of great tribulation will "serve God in the Temple of heaven for 1000 years"!! This begins at His second coming!!! Rev.2:25-27; I Cor.15: 25-27; Rev.3:10-12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-5.

Escaping the "Hour of Trial", in your view, refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture. But
fulfilling the words of Jesus, in Rev.2:25-26 and Rev.3:10-12, will be looked upon by Trib-Saints as the quintessential evidence of God's promise of their imminent deliverance ... just as Paul declares that "all believers who survive until the Day of Vengeance will be delivered from tribulation". 2 Thess.1:5-10.

Can you exclude Trib-Survivors from God's promises to be "kept from the hour of trial" or deny that those who "die in the Lord will serve God in the Temple of Heaven for 1000 years ... beginning at the first resurrection"? Rev.3:10-12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-5. I submit that God's ways are past finding out if you exclude the Two Witnesses from among the Trib-Martyrs who "die in the Lord" and deny they are among the "dead saints and prophets who are judged and rewarded at the 7th Trumpet". Rev.14:13; Rev.11:18.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbsup:

 

Allan,

Myself was pretrib before years ago. I know pretrib doctrine so well. Many pretrib teachers use 1 Thess 4:18 of 'comfort', that they saying that they shall be comfort that they shall not have to face tribulaiton, they shall be rapture first. But, the context of 1 Thess. 4:13-18 is talking about resurrection, and to encourge them that, they do not be sorrow over their love ones, they shall see their love ones again at Lord's coming. That what the comfort is for. I hope that you undertsand what I am talking about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I Corinthians 15:51-52, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Got any idea what Paul is talking about here?

When will this take place?

Do you believe Paul here is preaching "universalism"?

 

Regrettable some just do not believe Paul got His information from Christ in heaven. Also regrettable you continue to attribute to me things I have never said. All things today are New. Why will you not believe God "hid" this dispensation today from man in order to bring to fruition His purpose? Our inheritance is our Lord Jesus Christ. We are of the "heavenlies", not to inherit the earth. We are not in prophecy past, and cannot be identified in prophecy future, other than in His Body Church. Revelation is written to the Jew, for at that time He will again remember them.

I have never denied prophecy, and what you present is in prophecy. After we are gone, and after the tribulation Acts 2:17-22 of prophecy will happen, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know".

This is not today my friend for is Israel prophesying today? Are their young men seeing visions? Their Old men dreaming dreams? Are we not sons of God, and not then "servants and handmaidens" as shown in 18? Do you not know at this time in Acts, God is still dealing with Israel, ignoring we Gentiles, until Damascus Road. Justification through faith for us has not yet come. We are not involved in Acts 2, and we are not involved in Revelation 14:12, or verse 13.

I ask again you show us the beast, the anti-christ, and when was the beginning of "henceforth" in verse 13. Who has the mark today, and who doesn't. You sound like another today that puts much faith in works. We today are saved by grace through faith, without works. These you point to must do the works for "their" testimony, and obedience, and enduring patiently, is demanded. This doesn't sound like Christianity of the Body Church, but the "Kingdom Church" that is tied to "works". Jesus Christ did our work for us. If not then we are of works, and it is no more Grace.

What you are missing is the "rapture", not prophesied.

 

Trib-Martyrs will be among those who "sleep in Jesus"

******************************************************

Thanks Bob for your obvious dedication to Scripture that includes "all the
Saints". They include the rapture of those who "survive to the END" as stated in Rev.2:25-26 and I Cor.15:25-52 and takes place at the "last trump". That's the 7th Trumpet which sounds "after prophetic time ends and God's mystery has been finished"! Rev.10:6-7.

A Pre-Trib resurrection AND rapture focusus on a limited number of saints!It refuses to deal with Scriptures that promise all who "keep His word to the END will be kept from the HOUR of Trial". Ituttut rejects a resurrection and rapture as automatically taking place at the 7th Trumpet.

The 7th Trumpet is the only place in Revelation that pinpoints the time appointed for the resurrection of all believers. It is impossible to have a "resurrection of the saints" without also having a "rapture of those who overcome until (achri) the END". In Rev.2:25,26 the double use of this particle achri refers to the "terminus-ad-quem" of this present Age when Christ comes to "reward every believer ... in the days after the tribulation". He will "reward EVERY believer when He comes in glory
with the holy angels and rewards every believer whom He raises up, as He
promised, On the last DAY". Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12; John 6:38-40,44.54.

Ituttut constantly avoids the truth about the resurrection and rapture on the Day Christ comes in glory by saying "it's not in prophecy". Obviously
he uses this evasive phrase since he has no Scripture to deny that Trib-Martyrs "die in the Lord"! They will be included in the "first resurrection and those who are alive and survive will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air"!! Therefore, these words will "comfort those who survive to the END"!!! Rev.14:13; Rev.:20:4-5; I Thess.4:13-17.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2: God's love and promises are for every believer ... including the Martyrs who "die in the Lord". Rev.14:13.

 

Trib-Martyrs "asleep in Jesus"?

********************************************************

Friends,

I notice that no one responded to this question. A much more potent and
relevant question concerns the inclusion of Trib-Martyrs among those "God will bring with Jesus at His Presence (parousia)"? They are among those who "die in the Lord". Rev.14:13.

If the souls of Trib-Martyrs are not included among those who "sleep in
Jesus at His Parousia," then what happens to their souls? In what other
resurrection could they become participants than that of the "First
Resurrection" to which John refers in Rev.20:5-6?

Ituttut's exclusion of Trib-Survivors from the Rapture of I Thess.4:16-17
ignores that the Resurrection of and Rewards to ALL the saints occurs "IN PROPHECY" at the 7th Trumpet which soundS at the Feast of Tabernacles on the same day Christ is crowned King of kings and comes to "destroy those who are destroying the earth"! Rev.11:15-18; Zech.14:9-16.

That unknown DAY will be one of the 3 1/2 days the Two Prophets "lie dead on a street of Jerusalem"! They will rise up and be caught up to heaven on the last day!! John 6:38-40,44;54. He will raise up every/all Believers and send the angels to "gather them together above out of the 4 winds at the sound of the great trumpet"!!! Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31.

Praise God for His glorious plan to bring ALL the Martyrs with Jesus and to assemble ALL surviving Believers together above in order to come with them on the Last Day...including 144,000 "blameless" Jews as His Firstfruit of the Endtime Harvest. Rev.14:1-5.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :applause: