Assorted Postmillennialism, articles, sermons.

[Iconoclast]

I honestly fail to understand your argument. The pre millennial view is a fundamental of my personal faith. And has been, since both independent Baptist churches when I had joined them were pre millennial in their statements of faith. Just saying.

My first baptist church also held that view.
It took me a few years to understand the view.
I liked that it attempted to make sense of the whole bible.
As a new Christian there are many things to learn.
You assume because you went to 2 churches that taught that view that it alone is the correct view?
Every biblical Christian believes in the visible bodily return of Jesus.That is fundamental.
The view you hold is the new kid on the block.
I do not think you can give an accurate description of the other views based on your inability to deal with the passages offered here.
You see that several passages use identical language,
but you do not identify where they differ.
Because you assume the premill ideas to be"fundamental"...you cannot grasp how the same verses can be similar, yet differ.
A person does not modify or change a view, until it is challenged scripturally.
That is what happened to me and many others.

 

[37818]

As a new Christian there are many things to learn.
You assume because you went to 2 churches that taught that view that it alone is the correct view?

No. It is what I had prior to joining both churches had came to believed from my own study. I was a Christian already eight years. Both churches were pre trib. But that teaching was not part of their statement of faith. I was already post trib. If pre trib was in their statement I would not have joined either. Though I have no objections attending.

 

[Iconoclast]

No. It is what I had prior to joining both churches had came to believed from my own study. I was a Christian already eight years. Both churches were pre trib. But that teaching was not part of their statement of faith. I was already post trib. If pre trib was in their statement I would not have joined either. Though I have no objections attending.

No one comes up with these views without a study bible, or some external influence.

 

[37818]

. . . you assume the premill ideas to be"fundamental" . . . .

Maybe. But I do not merely think this. The Revelation of Jesus Christ has this seal, Revelation 22:18-19, ". . . For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the tree of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. . . ." Now Revelation 20:2-6 is explicitly pre mill as I have long understood it's text. My view post trib, Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:52, pre wrath, Revelation 6:12-17, 1 Thessalonians 1:10.

 

[Iconoclast]

mt 24-post trib?....yes as the tribulation took place between 65-70ad.
1 cor15:52....the last day
Rev6:12-17....the destruction of jerusalem, in 70 ad.
because I do not share your future idea of a millenial Kingdom, but rather understand it as started already,is no reason to offer rev22.
I could accuse you of doing the same thing.

 

[37818]

No one comes up with these view5s without a study bible, or some external influence.

Scofield 1917 edition I got as a new Christian. And as a young adult a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance became my main study tool. To understand what I was believing, John Walvoord's, "The Rapture Question." It was after reading his explanations I discovered my view to be post trib. And this was before I joined Faith Baptist Church of Canoga Park in the summer of 1970. I was lead to Christ in the summer of 1962 through that church.

 

[Iconoclast]

Scofield 1917 edition I got as a new Christian. And as a young adult a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance became my main study tool. To understand what I was believing, John Walvoord's, "The Rapture Question." It was after reading his explanations I discovered my view to be post trib. And this was before I joined Faith Baptist Church of Canoga Park in the summer of 1970. I was lead to Christ in the summer of 1962 through that church.

my second ,third , and 4th bible were Scofield bibles.The notes influence new believers.

 

[37818]

mt 24-post trib?....yes as the tribulation took place between 65-70ad.
1 cor15:52....the last day
Rev6:12-17....the destruction of jerusalem, in 70 ad.
because I do not share your future idea of a millenial Kingdom, but rather understand it as started already,is no reason to offer rev22.
I could accuse you of doing the same thing.

We do not agree. 1 Corinthians 15:52 ". . . the last . . . ." trumpet. We can argue past each other. Or we can slow down set each point of difference side by side.

 

[Iconoclast]

We do not agree. 1 Corinthians 15:52 ". . . the last . . . ." trumpet. We can argue past each other. Or we can slow down set each point of difference side by side.

We are not going to agree. Jesus said it is the last day.
jn5:28-29
jn6:39,40,44
I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[37818]

We are not going to agree. Jesus said it is the last day.
jn5:28-29
jn6:39,40,44
I will raise him up on the last day.

A key to the post trib view. 2 Peter 3:8. There is only the one first resurrection, Revelation 20:6. There is only one "the last" trumpet, Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16. There is only one second appearing, Hebrews 9:28, Titus 2:13, 1 John 3:2.

 

[percho]

We are not going to agree. Jesus said it is the last day.
jn5:28-29
jn6:39,40,44
I will raise him up on the last day.

Order IMHO = A,B,C

Give your understanding of the following scripture.

And now, (A) Christ hath risen out of the dead -- (A) the first-fruit of those sleeping he became, for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, (A) a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the (B) Christ's, in his presence, then (Then, when?) -- the end, (C) ? the rest of the dead?) when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power -- for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- the last enemy is done away -- (the, it's in the Greek) death;

Elaborate, if you will, "on in his presence," relative to yourself. Is that, "in his presence," the same moment as 1 Cor 15:51,52?
Is that when you, in body, will either be instantly changed or raised incorruptible? Speak to that, proper order.

One more thought which I believe to be relative. Can 2 Peter 3:8 apply to your John 5 and 6 concept of, I will raise him up on the last day? And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day;

Consider, each in his proper order.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe the first Resurrection is when we are born from above, going from spiritual death to eternal life; Jn.5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[percho]

I believe the first Resurrection is when we are born from above, going from spiritual death to eternal life; Jn.5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I believe John 5:24 is in the same context as Romans 6:5,8 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: - and the context there being in the, future